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The “mail is hard” myth

poolp.org

261–270 of 311 posts

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#261
post #27

To all the folks answering basically "yes it's hard" I think the headline is a bit clickbaity but there are some interesting takeaways... To summarize, (a) yes it's harder than setting up Big Corp Mail, but (b) a lot of the horror stories are either old or secondhand, and (c) it's a lot less hard to set up than it used to be. If the suggestion is, why not give it a try, one thing I feel is missed is, how hard is it n…

Suppose I wrote an article headlined "Being a DBA is not hard" and gave "dnf install mysql-server && systemctl enable mysqld" as proof.

TFA is on par with this.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the biggest pain in hosting your own mail server is getting your outbound mail delivered into the mailboxes of the large providers without being marked as spam Why do you think that? The article mention exactly this could just be a myth that perpetuates because people repeat it without actually trying it. In fact, I used to think exactly like you when I originally set up my personal mail server and opted fo…

> None of my emails are considered as spam, and I haven't touched the mail configuration since. Sounds like you never actually tried to measure the delivery rates of your outgoing email. No email server is actually able to get 100% of its outgoing mail past spam filters. I've ran my own email server for a few years and I can confirm that the article is making false claims. It's incredibly difficult to deliver email a…

Gmail occasionally classifies the random email from YouTube as spam.

Given that, 100% delivery rate seems like a dream.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#263

Email is hard across time. Meaning yes, I can setup a mail server, and yes I can configure DKIM+SPF, and yes I can initially get good delivery to all the major providers. But that's just the beginning. Email is an ongoing maintenance responsibility. And problems with mail delivery are almost always an emergency for yourself or your clients. Nothing quite matches the gut punch of being on time for a deadline then havi…

>Email is an ongoing maintenance responsibility. True, but it is generally fairly minimal.

> True, but it is generally fairly minimal.

That's actually kind of the problem. It's the same thing with phone systems. Any IT person worth a shit can follow a decent tutorial and end up with a system that works. Until it doesn't.

What happens when it doesn't is the issue. For a lot of businesses this will be an immediate critical problem. This is not a great time to be learning by experimentation.

If these services are not critical then go nuts, but if your business depends on these services you really want to have someone whose full time job it is to run them. If your business is not large enough to support having a person's primary role be administering these systems you should really have a third party vendor do it for you.

The article is right, you don't have to use one of the big names, but most of the time it's not a good idea to run your own if you consider email to be a critical service.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#264

Email is hard across time. Meaning yes, I can setup a mail server, and yes I can configure DKIM+SPF, and yes I can initially get good delivery to all the major providers. But that's just the beginning. Email is an ongoing maintenance responsibility. And problems with mail delivery are almost always an emergency for yourself or your clients. Nothing quite matches the gut punch of being on time for a deadline then havi…

I don't agree with you. I run many, many small email setups and some rather large ones. I am based in the UK.

The only thing that gets mail dropped big style these days, in my experience, is the saddest one: Reverse DNS entries, ie not getting PTR registered. This anachronism still seems to be a fixation by everyone.

Content checkers seem to be pretty decent these days. My fav. is rspamd nowadays with Exim on the front. I generally wind back from doing anything fancy and leave it to defaults. Even more bizarrely, I do add a domain blacklist for all return addresses. As you know email addresses are easily fakeable but the semi legit spammers do stick to a list of domains and hence can be dropped with a few rules. They will go away after a while.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#265
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is perfet. Let me quote: "OK, then why is everyone saying it’s hard ? [...] Another reason is because it used to be hard a long time ago. People got traumatized by how hard it was to not screw up and never reevaluated the situation. Some people today genuinely discourage other people from running their mail server, citing the very real difficulties they faced over a decade ago, far before some of today’s…

How does running my own mail server save me time, money, or give me capabilities that I don’t have by paying someone else? What other criteria should I use?

Privacy is power. Lack of privacy is power too, just not yours.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#266
"Mail is not hard: people keep repeating that because they read it, not because they tried it"

Actually I repeat it because I ran mail servers for years, for personal use, for small businesses, for large businesses.

It was hard because spam was difficult to deal with, I don't know if that's gotten easier. It was hard because managing mailboxes, spam boxes, whitelists, webmail, etc for users was non-trivial. It was hard because occasionally you would be blacklisted and it took days to un-blacklist you, either from a spam list, or from a "big provider" because for whatever reason they just didn't want to take your mail. It was hard because you couldn't just run an open relay on most ISPs, you usually had to use your ISP's relay, and thus suffer their own issues; if you used commercial IP space that was less of an issue. It was hard because it had to be secure, and follow standards. It was hard because as your own hosting provider, you had to do all the things providers do: have a stable connection, manage your DNS, do backups, manage configuration, upgrades, patches.

We're not trying to bullshit you. We did it, and it was hard. Maybe it won't be for you, or maybe the "hardness" is just fun for you. But it's not a myth.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#267
post #16

I think the biggest pain in hosting your own mail server is getting your outbound mail delivered into the mailboxes of the large providers without being marked as spam. Especially if you don't actually send a lot of mail, so you can never really build up a good IP reputation. That's why I generally recommend a hybrid setup: Host inbound mail completely by yourself so that you have full control, but ship off outbound…

> I think the biggest pain in hosting your own mail server is getting your outbound mail delivered into the mailboxes of the large providers without being marked as spam Why do you think that? The article mention exactly this could just be a myth that perpetuates because people repeat it without actually trying it. In fact, I used to think exactly like you when I originally set up my personal mail server and opted fo…

No - the article contradicts itself. The author says it's "a myth" and "just set up spf/dkim", and then later says "This is already happening with one specifically requiring mails to be sent from another Big Mailer Corp to hit the inbox, or requiring that senders be added to the contacts for others. Any other sender will hit spambox unconditionnally for a while before being eventually upgraded to inbox."

Which is it? Those of us who have run mail servers know that you get unconditionally spammed all the time.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does running my own mail server save me time, money, or give me capabilities that I don’t have by paying someone else? What other criteria should I use?

Privacy is power. Lack of privacy is power too, just not yours.

If you are looking for “privacy” from email - you’re looking in the wrong place. But even if your end is private - the other end probably isn’t.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#269
post #16

I think the biggest pain in hosting your own mail server is getting your outbound mail delivered into the mailboxes of the large providers without being marked as spam. Especially if you don't actually send a lot of mail, so you can never really build up a good IP reputation. That's why I generally recommend a hybrid setup: Host inbound mail completely by yourself so that you have full control, but ship off outbound…

> I think the biggest pain in hosting your own mail server is getting your outbound mail delivered into the mailboxes of the large providers without being marked as spam Why do you think that? The article mention exactly this could just be a myth that perpetuates because people repeat it without actually trying it. In fact, I used to think exactly like you when I originally set up my personal mail server and opted fo…

As a person who does run a number of (smallish) mail servers, some outgoing mail does get classified as SPAM and I have to fix it. It's very rare - every 3 months or so maybe, but it does happen. (Possibly the most irritating thing about this is they won't tell you what emails made them think you are sending spam, lets alone why they thing it's spam which makes root cause analysis damned near impossible.) The reverse happens too - we occasionally block non-spam emails.

But, and it's a damned big but, AFAICT, my email servers make less of those mistakes than the big email providers like Google or Microsoft, so the overall reliability of my home grow system is higher. It's got to the point that when someone complains they didn't get an email I got, my first question is "do you use gmail?".

The other big but it is it complex. It isn't just a single server - they are a network of them that distribute email across a geographically dispersed organisation. Despite being distributed it archives copies of all email that passes through it (as required by law here). There are some 2.5K of configuration lines driving it. So yes, it requires some effort to set it up. However, like your case those 2.5K lines haven't changed overly in over a decade.

The flexibility the system provides us in the way we handle email is invaluable. As a consequence of that flexibility a lot of emails are never seen by humans - they routed to a place they can be automatically processed.

Personally I wouldn't say email particularly hard, or particularly easy. It seems no more difficult than all the other things you have to do to manage a cluster of servers. The rewards for getting do it inhouse are pretty big, because just like everything else a programmer or sysadmin has control of, over time it will be scripted so heavily it will become almost invisible.

Re: The “mail is hard” myth

#270
post #16

I think the biggest pain in hosting your own mail server is getting your outbound mail delivered into the mailboxes of the large providers without being marked as spam. Especially if you don't actually send a lot of mail, so you can never really build up a good IP reputation. That's why I generally recommend a hybrid setup: Host inbound mail completely by yourself so that you have full control, but ship off outbound…

> I think the biggest pain in hosting your own mail server is getting your outbound mail delivered into the mailboxes of the large providers without being marked as spam Why do you think that? The article mention exactly this could just be a myth that perpetuates because people repeat it without actually trying it. In fact, I used to think exactly like you when I originally set up my personal mail server and opted fo…

I tried it a couple years ago. Delivering to large providers wasn't the problem. The problem was smaller ISP, one of them flat-out banned all IPs from my host provider (Digital Ocean), others for no reason I could find banned my specific IP. (I was not on any public block list BTW)

Getting off their block list was either impossible or involved digging some old forum posts to find an email address that you could try your luck with, usually with no result as it seems nobody was reading it anyway.

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