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Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

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Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#261

Post by chrischen »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #55
chrischen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any sort of heavy hand the West takes to “prove” that whatever it is that China is doing (censorship, communism, etc) is wrong/doesn’t work is going to backfire to the highest degree. It will entrench them in their already strong beliefs that the West is only interested in holding progress back from China (out of jealousy at their high economic growth). If you believe your system is better, then you really should not…

> It will entrench them in their already strong beliefs We tried the hug approach when China was prematurely let into the WTO. That backfired. Our concern should be, first and foremost, with our own morality. Helping a dictator repress billions of people is wrong, against our values, and should not tolerated by people in our society.

> Our concern should be, first and foremost, with our own morality. Helping a dictator repress billions of people is wrong, against our values, and should not tolerated by people in our society.

This is the main issue here. First and foremost morality is relative and our morals are not necessarily the right morals. Believing your way is the only right way and forcing others to conform is how dictatorships spread and start wars.

Second, imposing one’s own morals on others is immoral, and is what started the crusades, proselytizing, Christian missions, imperialism, and slavery.

Third, you may believe they have a brutalizing dictator, and this may be true or a simple misguided opinion based on ignorance at a distance, but if the population you are trying to help doesn’t agree with you then who’s interests are you really serving?

The reality is that regardless of whether China’s ways are in absolute terms (there are no absolute terms) wrong or not, American foreign policy towards China, or even other countries, has always been self-serving, and less about promoting “morals”. Much of the Cold War and anti-communism campaigns on the US were extremely immoral, and only in hindsight do we see that they were carried out of ignorance, prejudice, and a desire mostly to secure more Western allies.

And if you really believe whatever it is they are doing in China won’t work, it will collapse on its own like the Soviet Union. If you are a true free market democratic capitalist, then you should have no problem letting their system survive on its own merits. Anything else is just self-serving ulterior motive propoganda.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#262

Post by matz1 »

anvandare wrote: post #25
i_am_nomad wrote: post #3

... for now. What would be far more reassuring would be a statement from Google that Project Dragonfly does not meet their ethical standards as a company.

The fact that they even started the project speaks for itself. Companies don't have ethical standards, only slick PR departments.

Everyone, including companies do have ethical standard, its just they might not be aligned with your ethics.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#263

Post by srcmap »

wurst_case wrote: post #247
bduerst wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of like how they pushed Apple to move their iCloud data onto local Chinese datacenters: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh... Or how they then nationalized the company that has access to all the iCloud encryption keys for accessing Apple user messages, pictures, videos, files, etc. at rest: https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d...

Yikes. This is concerning but not surprising. After the Snowden leaks, a buddy of mine kept telling me that it was the tip of tmthe iceberg, that the private sector was even more dangerous than prism. I guess this is what he was talking about.

Google's sensorvault keeps track of hundreds of millions phone's location data for the past TEN YEARS and share those data with police.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/04/googles-sensorvault-ca...

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#264

Post by khc »

reallydude wrote: post #251
khc wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How am I advocating for race to the bottom?

If a condition is already bad, why bother trying to make it better? ie: > Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored "...so it isn't helping, it's just business as usual." The counterpoint is that having choice is helpful, especially when the choices include user segments, even if you don't experience it. Also, participating…

My claim is that Google entering China is making a bad situation better

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#265

Post by laughinghan »

dirtyid wrote: post #249
laughinghan wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point was censorship for prevent violence has it's place, and the west now recognizes that. ??? The West recognizes what? The West now endorses Chinese Internet censorship? Western governments now also enforce Internet censorship? Did the White House start calling to Build The Firewall? What are you talking about? > Access is possible and not even inconvenient. The Chinese government spends billions of dollars…

Western social media companies are increasingly censorial, following Chinese censorship in spirit not structure. If you're ignorant about how trivial it is to access vpn and outside info in China then I'm not sure to say. The firewall and grey legislation around vpns is calibrated that low information audience gravitates towards party line while those seeking information has access. Usage not brand awareness. The num…

> Western social media companies are increasingly censorial, following Chinese censorship in spirit not structure.

The structure is what matters. Kings and despots throughout history have frequently ruled fairly and justly. Out of all the decisions they made in that role, they probably made many more fair ones than unjust ones. But their making the right call in any particular case is not a reason they should have had that much power in the first place.

Western social media is stepping up moderation of harassment and calls for violence, but they're making an effort to do so in an accountable and transparent way while doing so. And I don't think even they are accountable enough; I hope that Instagram and WhatsApp really do get split off from Facebook.

> The firewall and grey legislation around vpns is calibrated that low information audience gravitates towards party line while those seeking information has access.

Am I understanding correctly that your position is that this is a good thing, or at least fine? Because this placates the masses which tend more towards violence or other destabilizing actions, while allowing elites to continue to have a robust debate? Is that an accurate characterization of your position?

> The numbers suggests more Chinese people are aware of western and Chinese perspectives than vice versa. Leading me to ask, in general, who is actually more informed?

I'm not worried about American awareness of Chinese perspectives. I'm worried about Americans' missing or inaccurate understanding of American history, e.g. the Lost Cause.

I'm not worried about Chinese awareness of American perspectives. I'm worried about Chinese suppressed or sanitized understanding of Chinese modern history, e.g. June 4th.

I don't give a fuck about Chinese people being able to read Americans' sanctimonious takes on Tiananmen. I want Chinese people to be able to read Liu Xiaobo's take on June 4th, on Charter 08, on 996.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#266

Post by ezoe »

patejam wrote: post #118
ezoe wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both US and EU exercise censorship in the name of: + copyrights + trademarks + patents(really bogus patents) + religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game) + national security + ex-political party symbol(swastika, but they can't tell the difference between nazi symbol and Buddism symbol which is widely used in Japanese…

So a couple things (From the US perspective): 1. Copyright, trademarks, and patents are a pretty weak argument for "censorship" IMO. But I guess I see where you're coming from. There are also many "fair-use" exceptions for these that make it less "censorship" and more "preventing profit on other people's ideas". 2. "US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying s…

> Can you give an example? This seems to go directly against first amendment rights.

Like I said, many manga/anime/games were modified to remove any casual use of religious symbol when released in US. These days, major products don't contain these beforehand if it's famous enough to expect US release.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#267

Post by ezoe »

Faark wrote: post #232
patejam wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a couple things (From the US perspective): 1. Copyright, trademarks, and patents are a pretty weak argument for "censorship" IMO. But I guess I see where you're coming from. There are also many "fair-use" exceptions for these that make it less "censorship" and more "preventing profit on other people's ideas". 2. "US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying s…

> 2. "US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game" -- Can you give an example? This seems to go directly against first amendment rights. I also would love to see some example and an not aware of cases were stuff was changed due to laws. There is self-censorship, as e.g. the Spice and Wolf anime trying very hard not to use christian symbols…

Its rare the US government order the censorship. The problem is publisher self-censorship it because it may disturb some religious people.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#268

Post by ezoe »

schoen wrote: post #127
ezoe wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both US and EU exercise censorship in the name of: + copyrights + trademarks + patents(really bogus patents) + religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game) + national security + ex-political party symbol(swastika, but they can't tell the difference between nazi symbol and Buddism symbol which is widely used in Japanese…

I'd be happy to see any country challenge any other country's information restrictions in the international trade system, but I think your examples about the U.S. are partly mistaken. > + religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game) Religious sensitivities run high in the U.S., but criticizing or mocking (or advocating…

Mocking the religion is not a problem, The problem is casual reference of religion with no political intention.

Like in fictional manga/anime/game where the character with supernatural power has attack power which when invoked, bright Christian cross or Buddism manzi appears or in-fiction religion(Totally not Christianity) use Christian cross as a symbol.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#269

Post by ezoe »

sorokod wrote: post #122
ezoe wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both US and EU exercise censorship in the name of: + copyrights + trademarks + patents(really bogus patents) + religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game) + national security + ex-political party symbol(swastika, but they can't tell the difference between nazi symbol and Buddism symbol which is widely used in Japanese…

Perhaps you can share the moral justification used by the Chinese government?

I don't know since I'm not Chinese.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#270

Post by PavlovsCat »

matz1 wrote: post #153
sorokod wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this is a justification, but not a moral one. This one can be employed to justify any arbitrary measure applied by any arbitrary authority at any arbitrary point in time.

Morality is relative, to them it maybe very well be the moral thing to do. >This one can be employed to justify any arbitrary measure applied by any arbitrary authority at any arbitrary point in time Yes it can but you don't have to agree with it

> Morality is relative, to them it maybe very well be the moral thing to do.

It certainly is not how they would want to be treated, or this whole discussion could simply be settled by the holders of one opinion murdering everyone else. Nobody wants that applied to them, making everybody who rationalizes it being done to others a vulgar hypocrite.

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