Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

wjla.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 303 posts

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#261

Post by chipperyman573 »

lisper wrote: post #240
perennate wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That leaving is an option is what the parent comment is saying ("refusal to work at the proposed price"). The drivers in the article are refusing to drive at the non-surge price, and when the price surges, they find the price acceptable and so take the rides. The part of parent comment that you quoted is just about how the take-it-or-leave-it nature leaves no middle ground (bidding).

But that is false. Acceptance or refusal of an offer is bidding. It's essentially an auction: Lyft/Uber asks, "Does anyone want to sell at $X? No? OK, how about $X+1?" etc. What the drivers are doing is not bidding, it is colluding to hide the true market price, i.e. what the lowest bidder would actually be willing to accept. That is illegal. Please note that my sympathies are very much with the drivers. Their situat…

>But breaking the law is not the way to improve it.

Breaking the law is exactly what Uber and Lyft did and now that they're on the other side they're whining about it.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#262

Post by rco8786 »

lexs wrote: post #15
Konnstann wrote: post #6

"On average, Lyft drivers earn over $20 per hour." I wonder if this figure takes into account all the waiting time, or just driving time on the app. If it is the latter, then that's a pretty scummy thing to say, considering that most drivers spend less than a third of the time actually driving people to their destination, putting the actual number closer to 7.00 an hour.

Also does that include repairs, depreciation, insurance etc. of the car? What about fuel?

It does not, and it should not.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#264

Post by lisper »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #244
lisper wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is false. Acceptance or refusal of an offer is bidding. It's essentially an auction: Lyft/Uber asks, "Does anyone want to sell at $X? No? OK, how about $X+1?" etc. What the drivers are doing is not bidding, it is colluding to hide the true market price, i.e. what the lowest bidder would actually be willing to accept. That is illegal. Please note that my sympathies are very much with the drivers. Their situat…

> What the drivers are doing is not bidding, it is colluding to hide the true market price, i.e. what the lowest bidder would actually be willing to accept. That is illegal. Is that what's happening? The drivers have no ability to coerce other drivers. It seems to me that if there were a driver willing to accept a lower price, they would do so. But not enough drivers are willing, so Uber/Lyft is forced to increase it…

Of course that's what's happening. Collusion != coercion. Collusion is voluntary.

What is really happening here is that Uber wants the drivers to play a multi-player prisoner's dilemma, and the drivers want to coordinate cooperation. Uber wants to force the price to the lowest that the market will bear and the drivers want to force the price to the highest the market will bear. The rules of capitalism are specifically designed to produce the former outcome.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#265

Post by lisper »

chipperyman573 wrote: post #261
lisper wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is false. Acceptance or refusal of an offer is bidding. It's essentially an auction: Lyft/Uber asks, "Does anyone want to sell at $X? No? OK, how about $X+1?" etc. What the drivers are doing is not bidding, it is colluding to hide the true market price, i.e. what the lowest bidder would actually be willing to accept. That is illegal. Please note that my sympathies are very much with the drivers. Their situat…

>But breaking the law is not the way to improve it. Breaking the law is exactly what Uber and Lyft did and now that they're on the other side they're whining about it.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#266

Post by rco8786 »

kubatyszko wrote: post #26
Konnstann wrote: post #6

"On average, Lyft drivers earn over $20 per hour." I wonder if this figure takes into account all the waiting time, or just driving time on the app. If it is the latter, then that's a pretty scummy thing to say, considering that most drivers spend less than a third of the time actually driving people to their destination, putting the actual number closer to 7.00 an hour.

I've had rides that cost me $15 and took 45 minutes, the math does not add up at all. In fact, I commute with Lyft nearly every day and my average 40 minute ride costs somewhere around $20. Even with another ride directly like mine it's unlikely there's enough earnings within an hour to cover Lyft's fees and pay the driver $20...

Why not? Figure the driver takes 10 min to pick up another passenger. That’s another 10 min worth of driving and we’ll just say it all goes to Lyft. Driver makes $20, Lyft makes $5, 10 minutes are “wasted”.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#267

Post by chrischen »

leereeves wrote: post #90
radcon wrote: post #59

This seems like it could also torpedo their Contractor vs. Employee argument. Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. Now if only someone would develop an app that does this for entire cities. The app could be their version of a union.

Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered price fixing? Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

A union is basically collusion/price fixing.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#268

Post by lisper »

dullgiulio wrote: post #243
lisper wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is false. Acceptance or refusal of an offer is bidding. It's essentially an auction: Lyft/Uber asks, "Does anyone want to sell at $X? No? OK, how about $X+1?" etc. What the drivers are doing is not bidding, it is colluding to hide the true market price, i.e. what the lowest bidder would actually be willing to accept. That is illegal. Please note that my sympathies are very much with the drivers. Their situat…

I wonder why the opposite is legal. If users are willing to pay more, Uber/Lyft will not automatically offer more to the drivers. Seems like the free-market works only when it is in favour of the company arbitraging.

The rules of capitalism are specifically designed to drive the price down as low as possible, in the ideal case, to the actual marginal cost of production. That's good for the buyer, bad for the seller, so sellers try all kinds of ways to get around this, some of which are legal (IP protection) and some are not (collusion, price-fixing). If you want to argue that we should change the rules I will not dispute you. But that the moment, that's where things stand.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#269

Post by chipperyman573 »

lisper wrote: post #265
chipperyman573 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But breaking the law is not the way to improve it. Breaking the law is exactly what Uber and Lyft did and now that they're on the other side they're whining about it.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Not usually, but a lot of these drivers were people that were screwed by Uber and Lyft's dodgy (illegal) practices (for example ignoring taxi medallion requirements, which they still are doing right now). So if the only way these people can stop their own bleeding is by responding with illegal practices of their own, Uber and Lyft don't have a leg to stand on.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#270

Post by chrischen »

I think many people are missing some facts from the article. They aren’t so much going on “strike” as they are just turning off their apps on masse 5 minutes before plane lands to trigger surge pricing, and then turning back on to catch the passengers at surge pricing. Obviously customers are still choosing to accept such fares, but may not know that the real price (if they wait a bit) would be much lower.
Post reply on HN