Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#261

Post by shard » Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 10:44 AM UTC

salawat wrote: post #215

rayiner wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't you think this? Because you’re Asian? (My dad once asked me, when he perceived I was slacking as a teenager: “Do you know how to work a sixteen hour day?” Worked fine for him—he grew up in a village in Bangladesh and sent two kids to college in the United States. Writ large, it seemed to work pretty well for Japan and Korea as well, which went from developing nations to developed nations in a few gener…

I'm genuinely not seeking to troll or start a flame war here, so I apologize profusely if I speak out of line, I'm just looking to understand the current Chinese mindset. All that working hard is to catch up to a country that pushed the envelope on a 40 hour work week, and at least made an effort to respect the right of the worker to have a life outside the office? I find the argunent/cultural value unconvincing when…

From my time in China, I get the feeling from many of those working massive hours that it's a lot of work, but there is a lot of opportunity there, and for those who find a way, they can achieve success and riches. There's a bit of gold rush euphoria driving the whole thing.

Korea had a different feel. It was more of a feeling of banding together and weathering the hard times for a brighter future. Korea doesn't really have natural resources, and they don't have a lot of manpower, so the only thing they can do is work massive hours. Now that the nation has achieved some kind of success, it's getting harder and harder to get the younger generation to buy into that mentality, in addition to the lack of jobs and security of the previous generations.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#262

Post by learc83 » Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 1:18 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #260

learc83 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no way Alibaba is giving away 15% of their revenue in stock grants, so I'd take that with a huge grain of salt. Regardless the vast majority of their employees aren't going to become millionaires working there. >If long hours is the industry standard, to me that is exactly informed consent. I mean, no one will be surprised by the standard workplace arrangement. That's not what informed consent means--informed…

Your consent argument makes no sense to me. We're probably too far apart to communicate, but I'll make an attempt: I agree that "informed consent has to be voluntary or it's not consent". But this is absurd: "If 72 hour weeks are standard and your choice is long hours or being unemployed, it's not informed consent." Note that you can replace "72 hour weeks" with "40 hour weeks" or "10 hour work weeks" without changin…

There is obviously a large gray area between coercive and completely consensual when it comes to employment. Even 40 hour a week employment in the western world isn't completely without coercion in every case--only if the person has other alternatives.

>This implies that poor people across the world can't consent to anything.

In many situations they can't. When the power differential between 2 people is too great, there can be no consent. If the president asks an intern to sleep with him and he tells her she is free to walk away with no repercussion, there's still an element of coercion to the proposal.

>To me, as long as you can freely walk away from something, you are there by consent. No other definition makes logical sense.

How far does this belief go? If you come across a dying man in the desert and offer to sell him water in exchange for everything he owns, I'd say that's obviously not a consensual agreement. Despite the fact that he can freely walk away from it.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#263

Post by teknologist » Wed, Apr 24, 2019, 4:43 AM UTC

thetechlead wrote: post #129

raducu wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But does it matter if you work continuously 9-9? If I stay on premise 9-9 I still regard that as work -- that still is my time that I'm selling to the company. Can you raise a child if you are away 9-9? You wake up at 7AM, return home at 10PM, how is that even considered a life worth living? That's just insane if you ask me.

> But does it matter if you work continuously 9-9? If I stay on premise 9-9 I still regard that as work -- that still is my time that I'm selling to the company. In many countries, lunch and dinner breaks are unpaid time - in theory you are free to go home and do whatever you want. In China, noon break can be two hour long including napping. And the free dinners of IT companies are actually incentives to lure you sta…

I feel it's also worth noting that a lot of local Chinese folks don't really have many "hobbies" or many other reasons to not be at work socialising with their colleagues and doing company organised activities. It's culturally quite different to the West, where people often have things going on outside of work.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#264

Post by teknologist » Wed, Apr 24, 2019, 4:50 AM UTC

thetechlead wrote: post #12

996 sounds like a paradise. We startup founders work 24/7. We are either working or thinking about work related stuff when not sleeping. Not that we don't know work-life balance is good for health, but you just can't stop dwelling on it if you have a devotion.

As a startup founder you're sitting on a nice pile of equity. That's why you are sacrificing more of your life for success. Chinese workers at Alibaba for example mostly do not have any equity at all.