Live data from Hacker News

Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

nytimes.com

261–270 of 731 posts

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#261
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's incompetence, it's a lack of political will. On energy, entrenched interests win out through regulatory capture and lobbying. On other infrastructure issues, most people and politicians simply don't care. Maybe once we get to a few bridge collapse per week.

Bingo. This is simply a political problem and nothing else. FUD and "not-in-my-backyard!" reigns supreme when it comes to the final approval process. As things currently stand, no group of politicians could survive the political fallout of getting a reactor build in their district. How can anything get done if doing so buys you unemployment from the ultimate cushy job of being an elected representative? Also, no one,…

First: I'm not anti-nuclear. It's tons cleaner than coal, and coal kills people every year.

But, if nat gas, wind, and solar are cheaper and faster to bring online, and can be build at pretty much any scale we want from single household to freaking huge, why would we build nuclear?

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#262
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because it's a next-gen project, that's what happens with R&D.

That’s not what happens with next-gen renewables —- they are modular and can be built much faster and much cheaper. New build nuclear is not cost competitive with new build wind and solar (even when you account for firming costs), and the cost of wind and solar is still falling at an astonishing rate.

> New build nuclear is not cost competitive with new build wind and solar (even when you account for firming costs), and the cost of wind and solar is still falling at an astonishing rate.

The future will tell, as it is now, Germany already spent more on renewable than the total French nuclear industry, even when you add decommissioning and with the bad results we know. Maybe countries should learn on the German mistakes? Also the renewables built to replace the nuclear plants in France are pointed out for being far over-budget as well.

The cost studies for renewable tend to remove a lot of external costs in order to make them appear cheaper than they are.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in Fukushima Dai-ichi's case, for some reason (possibly financial?), it was decided that the tsunami barrier was sufficient (it wasn't) for the job, Plate tectonics was not understood or scientifically described until 65-67. It was not a widely accepted theory until later, at least the 70s. By that point, Fukushima had already been permitted and built. Without plate tectonics to create the plate shift earthquake wh…

Indeed! And so goes hindsight. And we (the human race) have learned.

> And we (the human race) have learned.

yet, this is specific to this one incident, one specific threat.

The issue is more likely to be systemic. Once a production system is up and running, it is not consistantly being improved and iterated upon, but instead left to stagnate technologically (and in this case, in safety in light of new research etc).

But the argument is that such level of continuous improvement/iteration is costly, and the owners would not recouperate the costs! And so hence the economics goes, and so does the human condition continues to revolve around profit and loss.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#264
post #58

Generation III+ reactors are orders of magnitude safer than everything else that was built before the turn of the century. China is actually leading the charge right now, with AP1000 reactors under construction. One of the plants just went live last year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanmen_Nuclear_Power_Station The US needs to find a way to make building reactors affordable.

Russia builds affordable reactors. I think that US can try to ask them to build few.

There have been some strides in the past to work with Russia on nuclear. Nothing is happening in today's political climate however.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#265
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that "taking all disaster scenarios into account" is easy in hindsight, but maybe not in planning. But I believe that modern nuclear power reactors can be build intrinsically safe. For me, the real problem begins with the treatment of the waste: It's hard to find a good place to store it or reprocess it. Not so much because finding the actual place is hard, but because using that place will face hard o…

Look at Australia. We've been very easily influenced by the coal lobby. If there's plenty of jobs and investment flowing in, we'll do the same for nuclear.

Australia has huge amount of unusable dessert on the interior of the continent that could easily be used to store spent nuclear fuel.

It's honestly nuts that they use carbon-emitting fossil fuels at all given their nuclear, solar, and wind potential.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#266
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US needs to find a way to make building reactors affordable. Early reactors were hailed as paragons of safety too. Fukushima, remember, had a triply-redundant (or whatever) power supply to ensure that cooling power could be provided even in the event of a simultaneous meltdown and grid failure. Oops. I mean, look. It's... fine. Go nuclear. I agree with you, that these are probably safe designs and are probably…

> in a world where we can build out solar and wind as cheaply as we can gas plants and handle the grid buffering with batteries I notice you left the batteries out of your cost comparison with natural gas. Building enough battery for a carbon-free grid without fossil backup is not so cheap.

Nuclear is "not so cheap" either. But even wind and solar with legacy plants for peaking (i.e. something we can do right now without citing fantasy vaportech) is a relatively affordable 80% solution. Nuclear doesn't clear even that bar as it stands.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#267
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US needs to find a way to make building reactors affordable. Early reactors were hailed as paragons of safety too. Fukushima, remember, had a triply-redundant (or whatever) power supply to ensure that cooling power could be provided even in the event of a simultaneous meltdown and grid failure. Oops. I mean, look. It's... fine. Go nuclear. I agree with you, that these are probably safe designs and are probably…

> Fukushima, remember, had a triply-redundant (or whatever) power supply to ensure that cooling power could be provided even in the event of a simultaneous meltdown and grid failure. Oops. Yeah, and then they installed the backups below where the main plant was, rendering them completely useless. Oops. This was a human failure. Not a technological one.

And your proposal is that these future spiffy reactors will be designed by something other than... humans?

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is your take on what seems to be the complete and utter failure for the cleanup and dealing with the aftermath?

It is extremely difficult to clean up thousands of kilometers of contaminated land - esecially if said land is comprised of mountainous area... Miyakoji-machi itself is situated in a valley surrounded by hundreds of square kilometers of mountainous terrain. To blithley claim it would somehow be easy to decontaminate thousansd of square kilometers of mountainous area is naive folly. It is an extremely diffcult problem…

But blithley saying it is difficult is different than explaining why it /appears/ that very little effort, relative to the scope of the problem, has been applied.

Especially goven that tepco didnt even ADMIT to the other reactir failure, nor the acale of the catastrophy for a really really long time. They down played the whole thing feom day one and failed to even seek out external help immediately. Thats why thousands of kilometers and trillions of galllons of sea wer contaiminted

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#269
With nuclear energy, the cost and hazards of waste are explicit and priced into running costs. This is as it should be. Fossil fuels get a free ride by comparison.

The more I look I see there are two types of industries out there... those that profit by creating value, and those that profit by shifting the cost onto someone else.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#270
Nuclear fission is a compact, high powered energy source. It is a practical and cost effective energy source for energy generation on submarines, warships and spaceships. In 2019 however, it is not any longer worth advocating as a source of power for civilization on Earth (or any of the Inner Planets in this Solar System) given the last decade of cost reductions in solar and wind power coupled with low cost battery development. This is well understood by the market, politicians and the general public, even if the nuclear lobby hasn't come to terms with this reality. Even if plants could be built 6 times cheaper as this article suggests - which is both unlikely (given the track record of the industry) and unwise for ratepayers (given the history of cost offloading on the public) nuclear is unlikely to compete with renewables for the foreseeable future.

The entire article is written as a polemic (which is fine) but it argues against various straw-men and obfuscates the problems with nuclear power today. Some examples include:

Caiming it is "fantasy" that renewables alone can power the transition to a carbon free economy. Their argument? "Wind and solar power are becoming cheaper, but they are not available around the clock, rain or shine, and batteries that could power entire cities for days or weeks". This confused statement doesn't actually address the best argument of renewable energy advocates - that renewables could power entire cities if given sufficient generation and storage capacity. An argument indicating the limits of renewable power generation and battery production is required, but the article makes no such argument because it would not hold water. Also, if there is no daylight for weeks (nuclear winter?) there may be bigger problems to address than carbon emissions.

Also, the article does itself no favors by comparing itself to coal. This is a dying energy source (especially in the US) - the fact that nuclear is better than coal impresses no one.

Another trick used is sentences like this "By contrast, in 60 years of nuclear power, only three accidents have raised public alarm". It is quite likely that most nuclear incidents raised no alarm because they weren't reported. The public incidents cited were simply too large to go unnoticed. Does anybody believe the only lethal accident or cancer causing radioactive lease in the Soviet Union was Chernobyl?

Another crazy claim is "Nuclear waste is compact — America’s total from 60 years would fit in a Walmart — and is safely stored in concrete casks and pools, becoming less radioactive over time.". This is simply not correct as written. If America's waste was well managed it might fit into a Walmart (I didn't do the math), but it is isn't. It is a poorly manged mess, even leaking into groundwater like at Hanford. Hanford's cleanup wouldn't cost $113+ billion to clean up if nuclear waste sat in well organized casks in a Walmart sized warehouse. And Hanford is is just one (large) site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site).

Finally, the article deals with nuclear proliferation with this paragraph: "Nuclear power plants cannot explode like nuclear bombs, and they have not contributed to weapons proliferation, thanks to robust international controls: 24 countries have nuclear power but not weapons, while Israel and North Korea have nuclear weapons but not power." Again, no one is claiming that that nuclear plants explode like nuclear bombs (straw man). However, claiming they have no contributed to weapons proliferation requires a special reading of the paragraph where proliferation counts only as documented cases of nuclear material migrating across borders to be incorporated in nuclear weapons. The fact that nuclear plants produce material for nuclear weapons (whether it crosses a border or not) means nuclear power can (and does) contribute to weapon development. Israel may not have nuclear power plants, but it has "research" nuclear plants (Dimona) that probably produced the material for its bombs.

It's unclear to me if this is a good faith opinion piece.

Post reply on HN