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Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

abc.net.au

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Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#261
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, absolutely.

I admire the consistency, but the ammount of posts I see along the lines of "we won't hire Australians anymore" and the absence of posts like "we'll be adding Australia to the list of countries we don't hire from" doesn't fill me with confidence that this is common. Even before this change plenty of Chinese nationals would likely be employed wherever they were storing data in Australia and MS didn't care about that.…

The difference is that if a Chinese person does something for a Chinese intelligence agency they go to jail.

If someone sabotages a company after being instructed to do so by a Australian agency they are carrying out a lawful order.

Big difference IMO.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you can’t be compelled to give evidence against yourself in a normal criminal case. You can be compelled to give evidence in a royal commission hearing and that evidence can be used to prosecute you in a subsequent criminal case.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.lawyersweekly.com.au/pol... “Section 6DD of the Act provides that, where a witness is compelled by a summons to give evidence to the Royal Commission, that evidence isn’t admissible against a natural person in any civil or criminal proceedings in any court of the Commonwealth, or of a state or territory. It is, however, admissible against a corporation. ”

Interesting. There is this very relevant paragraph which makes the immunity rather moot.

However, evidential immunity under s 6DD doesn’t protect clients (who have been compelled to give evidence to the Royal Commission) from a regulator, such as ASIC, using their evidence as a springboard to gather secondary or derivative evidence, and using that derivative evidence against them.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australian law generally affects residents of Australia, not citizens. Are you sure they couldn't coerce you already?

The main point for me is not whether or not they can actually coerce me, but whether or not this is going to affect my employability. I have seen in various news articles reporting that, apparently, companies based in the USA and EU are currently wary of hiring Australian developers because of this law. Regarding your point, my understanding (I'm not a lawyer so I may be wrong) is that, in general, the law of a count…

Still, it's rare for citizens to be affected if they are outside the country.

The relevant legislation seems to be https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2018B00180, it doesn't contain the word "citizen".

The text is actually neutral on such questions. In theory, I think it could be applied to anyone in the world, regardless of citizenship or residence. However, in practice people with no connection to Australia would be likely to just ignore it.

A law enforcement officer (or another person on the officer’s behalf) may apply to an eligible Judge or to a nominated AAT member for an order (the assistance order) requiring a specified person to provide any information or assistance that is reasonable and necessary to allow the law enforcement officer to do one or more of the following:...

You have a point that they'd have more leverage against Australian citizens, especially if they don't have alternative citizenships (so that they need passport renewals) or intend to travel to Australia in future.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... shall not be infringed" because of the need for a "well regulated militia," not for said militia. It's an example of why the right is needed. Especially given the people raised a violent coup against their own government. These people were not in favor of disarming the public in general... to interpret it otherwise would be effectively changing the law.

Well regulated also essentially meant "competent" then as well. So it could be interpretted as "so our militia can have enough firearms practice to shoot straight and know how to fire, maintain, and reload the right to have gund shall not be infringed". Essentially like a justification for public schools and compulsory education being "literacy is essential to function be an informed citizen which is needed for self…

"well regulated" meant able able-bodied male of adult age. Your definition is likely far more constrained. "practice" in this sense is not generally mentioned, as they were required to own a conventional firearm for the time.

As to "training," there wasn't a regimen of regular firearms training per-se. It was generally considered common knowledge to know how to load and fire one's musket. As to any comparison of modern training, it seems to me like today's police, at least in major cities like NYC receive less training than a typical gun owner outside major cities.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia's public image of being a "larrikin" place - all beer on the beach and shrimp on the barbie, is at odds with its incredibly authoritarian attitudes. I'm always amazed at Aussie enthusiasm for the "smack of firm government" and their hatred of anyone breaking the rules.

The thing that's most odd about this is if you consider the history of the cause of settlement of Australia... the first settlers weren't exactly renowned for following the rules... that's why they were there in the first place. Irony at its finest.

You need to look at our country from a historical point of view. We have a lot of cultural ties with the UK. Australia did not become a country until 1901 and no it wasn't a penal colony for that whole time, There was a lot of migration primarily from the UK - to this day UK is one of our largest source of permanent migrants.

Most of Australia's laws, our parliamentary system etc was based on UK Westminster system. In the early years of our country most people were very pro British Empire. There was enormous social pressure on people to go and "fight for the empire" during World War 1 lots and lots of Australian went and fought and died in Europe, then the same thing happened in World War 2, except suddenly the Japanese were threatening us (A lot of people don't know the Japanese bombed Australia cities during WW2) and most of our military was over in Europe and Northern Africa after the fall of Singapore Australia realized how vulnerable we were and that British could not be counted on to defend us, which caused a strategic realignment behind US and things like the ANZUS treaty etc.

To this day there is still a lot of positive British sentiment in Australia. A lot of people here really like the Queen it's a little bizarre, not so evident in the city but if you go into regional country towns it is pretty pro monarchy. When I was in high school the Queen visited my area and it was crazy big parades huge event I have never seen another politician of any sort anywhere in the country get the kind of reception she did. Most people here are completely cynical about politicians but they love the queen - weird.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#267
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you can be required to backdoor code in secret or held to account by the security agencies not to inform your employer. This law gave the government the power to do just that. Details of implementing a backdoor in secret is close to impossible, as any developer would know. There was a post[1] made by "Alfie John" (alfiedotwtf) that outlines a scenario in which a developer is presented with a Technical…

Australian citizens, regardless of their location are obliged to comply with these requests. Extra-territorial law application is very complex. KP is one of the few places where you can routinely expect to be prosecuted in Australia for breaches overseas. or FGM. Or, more recently the war in Syria but bear with me: do you not also recognize that there is a huge reluctance to try and enforce the law in that last regar…

> Extra-territorial law application is very complex. KP is one of the few places where you can routinely expect to be prosecuted in Australia for breaches overseas. or FGM. Or, more recently the war in Syria but bear with me: do you not also recognize that there is a huge reluctance to try and enforce the law in that last regard? because it turns out simply being somewhere is not neccessarily a good basis to declare you broke the law, noting that few if any of the people seeking to come home took up arms, and specifically took up arms against Australia or her allies.

To be honest, what you have written doesn't seem to be related and/or your point is lost. However, I will try to underline my comment with the following:

If you are issued with a TAR, TAN or TCN and you reside overseas you must comply or face extradition under an extradition treaty - unless you are fortunate enough to reside in a country that does not have an extradition treaty with Australia and that country is unlikely to make deals in secret with the Australian Government. Or, you are fortunate enough to have a secondary citizenship and subsequently renounce your Australian citizenship.

> They also have to serve the request on you. Simply issuing it doesn't make it binding surely? You have to be formally notified.

If you are issued this notice, you are able to refuse under 317ZB and incur 238 penalty units or $49,980 as an individual, or 47,619 penalty units or $9,999,990 as a corporate body. There is no limit to the number of subsequent notices that are able to be issued of the same nature. In reality this means, if it is important enough, the government will continue to issue notices until you comply.

> do we have any indication aside from hypothetically speaking, that a TAR/TAN/TCN has or can be drafted which doesn't include the employer and IPR holder in the notice?

The law stipulates that a person is considered to be a "designated communications provider" under 317C.

See also, all relevant sections detailing: "an employee of a designated communications provider" and "an employee of a contracted service provider of a designated communications provider".

317ZF dictates that disclosure outside of seeking legal council incurs a penalty of 5 years imprisonment.

I'm not sure where you received your information from, but most of what you have said is contradictory to the law that was passed. Have you read the Assistance and Access Bill?

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't advise this. Defying or subverting a lawful order can itself be a crime and you can bet the Crown Prosecutor and the Judge have seen far more attempts than you have.

Can you imagine what would happen if there was a public case where a person got 5 years for letting the world know that the Australian government tried to force them to backdoor software? You don't really even need proof, because if he's sent to prison then his claim is true. Right now the risk from Australia is theoretical. After that there could actually be bans from other governments about using software made in A…

I imagine the person would go to prison for up to 5 years and the government would chest-thump about Being Tough On Baddies.

If anything they would like it to happen. If being exposed as a stupid law was enough to scare off the major parties, it wouldn't have been made law in the first place.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#269
post #166
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. Getting where I am now (Australian permanent resident) has been the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. It included working casual night-shift jobs while studying to get a uni degree during the day (having an Australian degree improves your score towards a skilled visa). For a long period I have been separated from my wife and daughter due to visa complications,…

One more piece of Anecdata, Im an Australian who has decided to go for US citizenship, for several reasons but all basically due to a continuous disregard for personal liberties by our government. Australians love being told what to do, seems like 90% of the population are very satisfied to be servants of the ruling class and aspire to nothing else. Edit: I replied to the wrong comment, meant to reply to the one abov…

Are you going to renounce your Australian citizenship?

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#270
post #30

I have migrated to Australia many years ago and I have recently become eligible to become a citizen. However I’ve heard stories of tech companies refusing to hire Australians because of the AA Bill, so I’m holding it off for now. The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. I…

So, how exactly would anyone get a back door past code review? There are practices and processes that make this infeasible regardless of the Australian Government's belief they can coerce anyone. Every company I've felt have been worth working for in the past 10 years have had rigorous code review practices that would obstruct my ability to integrate any code without oversight. So... how?

Why wouldn't they just issue the order to two developers? That seems to trivially solve the difficulty since the second code reviews for the first
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