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Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

polygon.com

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Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#261

Post by specialist »

leadingthenet wrote: post #194
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Compressed backups of the source and a changelog are very simple, straightforward, and effective on this scale. Too many people in this industry fetishize complexity and end up over-complicating even the smallest things, which might be why they get on the internet and criticize someone like Tarn for not doing so instead of actually creating something worthwhile.

How the heck is that simpler than -- git add . -- git commit -m "I did something" -- git push How???

As Donald Norman would say, it's all about the affordances. While supporting almost any inexplicably bad workflow imaginable (git-flow and kin), doing the reasonable thing for a two person crew has way too much cognitive burden.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#262

Post by specialist »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #108
danielbarla wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, for personal projects where I'm the sole developer, I only use git nominally. I mean, it's there, and sure, I commit; but it's not like I'm spawning feature branches or anything like that. It's a rather linear set of commits, functionally almost equivalent to having a zip of the source every now and then. I'm sure many people are the same.

Sort of. I've used git for so long and so deeply that it's ingrained in the way I think about code - I break things into atomic commits, and regularly traverse and edit the commits in the feature branch that I'm working on. That doesn't change when I'm working solo, nor do my commit message style rules. I find it very useful to be able to investigate the history of a piece of code, even as it moves across multiple fi…

"I break things into atomic commits"

This is something that I struggle with. And it sets me apart from the apparent majority of (younger) programmers.

At best, once I've baked something enough that I'm satisfied, I can go back and break up the work. But then what's the point?

From my perspective, the agile/scrum mindset (velocity!) leads to spamming the code base with poorly reasoned trivial changes, frequently just kicking the can down the road, happily accumulating technical debt like an accretion disk.

Alas. I think the youngsters are more correct. Code bases are now so short lived that anything more than the bare minimum is just wasted effort.

I miss the days of product development and burning CD-ROM gold masters and people at least tried to hammer nails straight.

I know, I know, get off my lawn and all that.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#263

Post by brownbat »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #181
Eruvarn wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you're going to go through all that work... isn't it easier to just use Git, or some other VC?

I've used git when I've contributed to open source projects. It's an over-complicated mess of a system when you're just one or two devs. Regular backups and notes are more than sufficient and never require you to google how to unfuck your branch.

Trying to learn git was a humbling experience.

Everything seems so simple and then suddenly you accidentally deleted all your local changes and have a bunch of similar but not identical branches. You get a message saying your head is detached and that feels right. At least your working tree is clean, you'd hate to have a dirty working tree.

You have a pressing need to learn merge but that launches its own fun minigame:

https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/05/23/stack-overflow-helping...

It's so popular and well documented that every time you get confused it feels like a personal failure.

The promise of git is phenomenal, and I know a lot of people realize that by mastering it. I just wish I had figured out a way to learn it more iteratively. It felt like there were a bunch of frontloaded concepts you need to master to get yourself back out of trouble. And if you ask for help from someone who doesn't include whatever you messed up in their normal workflow, even if they've used git for years they might not have any idea.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#264

Post by thrax »

Macuyiko wrote: post #155
gotocake wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every friend I’ve turned onto either game was basically lost for months, then returned to the world like a shipwrecked survivor. It was all long beards and uncut hair, wild eyes and impossible tales. These games are so good they should come with rehab.

I wish these games would still have that effect on me. I mean, I can totally see it happening back when I was 20-25 years old. When I try to start factorio, df, rimworld today, I can see the systems, I can feel the ocd style appeal and feedback loops grabbing me, until I realize after one hour that 1) this is just the same as work, 2) someone else has already optimized the crap out of this, better then I'd ever have…

Game dev in my 40s here. I have the same problem. The way I mitigate it is by sampling lots of games and just giving myself permission to just do that. You gotta figure all creative persuits are like this. Winemakers can't drink all the wine they ever see. Don't be too hard on yourself and just enjoy the new shiny when you see it... Take a taste and move on. Had a blast playing recroom on Oculus over the weekend. Had to take a nap afterwards.. lol. Don't know if I'll go back in any time soon.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#265

Post by djpilot »

avereveard wrote: post #74
chobeat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rimworld is kinda lame if you've played DF. They are not even comparable.

how so? the production chain is almost as deep. the damage model it's close in detail, and it's not terribly broken (whips anyone?) which should count as far as features go. you can actually caravan, explore people and exterminate faction without being restricted into adventure mode. and when you ask a neighbor for something in the caravan, you get what you asked. weather and climate is much more prominent, including…

Does DF have a multiplayer mod like rimworld? I love playing together with my partner.

https://github.com/Zetrith/Multiplayer

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#266

Post by imetatroll »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #181
Eruvarn wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you're going to go through all that work... isn't it easier to just use Git, or some other VC?

I've used git when I've contributed to open source projects. It's an over-complicated mess of a system when you're just one or two devs. Regular backups and notes are more than sufficient and never require you to google how to unfuck your branch.

The ease with which you can review how things have changed in a large code base (one written even by just one person) is invaluable. Not hard to use and the upsides - being able to diff different commits - is really something that shouldn't be taken lightly.

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#267

Post by honkycat »

umvi wrote: post #35

One thing that amazes me about Dwarf Fortress is that the creator(s) don't use version control[1] (as of 2014, things may have changed): "I don't use version control -- I didn't like the feeling of having the code get committed into a black box thingy with no immediate upside." I can't fathom how you can manage the complexity of a game like DF without a VCS. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_a…

Dwarf Fortress is a popular game, but it's progress has been stalled for years.

One of its big issues is performance. For an ascii game.

If anything, it is an example of how saying "Eh, screw it." can stall your progress

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#268

Post by danbolt »

mysterydip wrote: post #208
clucas wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this feeling - you're climbing up that hill at the very beginning, trying to figure out the mechanics and what the game is about. Then when you finally crest it, you see the whole game set out before you like a beautiful valley... and you realize, "this is going to take hours and days, and I already understand it." You judge the time required vs. the enjoyment that may be gained, and the game loses. And it's s…

I'd recommend roguelikes in general. Run and done in a sitting, and you can't really optimize the same way as the game has hidden/random elements. Two I'd recommend looking at: FTL and Into the Breach.

The 7DRL Challenge just completed this past weekend. A lot of the entries are quite small, and runs can be quite short. I think the 7-day time limit contributes to that.[1]

[1] https://itch.io/jam/7drl-challenge-2019

Re: Dwarf Fortress is coming to Steam with graphics

#270

Post by _phaq »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #114
Pfhreak wrote: post #50

I've often wondered if DF will ever get an open source version that tries to recreate the same experience but focuses on consistent interface design, performance and multithreading, and ease of extensibility. DF has a huge head start, and two of the most incredibly passionate developers out there, but it's also clear they prioritize expanding the model first and foremost rather than trying to tackle any of the user e…

I feel like every time someone sets out to create a F/OSS successor to DF, they end up mired in creating dungeon and world generators and never produce a functional game. Really, that's what DF is anyhow; they even call it a "story generator" IIRC. Tarn just managed to put enough of a playable game together before getting lost in the details of world generation, and people have stayed engaged enough with it to keep h…

Yeah, and with FOSS this is all the more important. No one is going to play your game, if it's not fun. Few people are going to play your game, while it's not yet in some tangible way better than DF.

And if people don't play your game, they're not going to contribute to it.

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