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Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#261

Post by ppseafield »

hrdwdmrbl wrote: post #193

Love it when Americans make decisions for Chinese people and presume to know what they'd want. Maybe try asking them what they want. Or even just think about what you'd want if you lived in China. Living in China, you know your search engine will be censored. But still, wouldn't you want the best censored search engine that you can get?

> Love it when Americans make decisions for Chinese people and presume to know what they'd want.

This is a discussion about Google (an American company) employees talking about one of Google's projects (as directed by the American company's leadership), but it happens to be about a product for another country.

> Living in China, you know your search engine will be censored. But still, wouldn't you want the best censored search engine that you can get?

As many folks in China use VPNs to get around the Great Firewall, it seems like they would like an uncensored internet.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#262

Post by math_and_stuff »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #188
math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I know my words aren’t worth much, but this anonymous human on the internet is very proud of you for standing up for what is right.

Thank you!

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#263

Post by abacona »

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26
o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

as a new silicon valley engineer who is trying to work out his morals and boundaries, you are an inspiration to me

your impact is larger than you think - thank you

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#264

Post by JohnFen »

lm28469 wrote: post #226
JohnFen wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google will move forward with expansion into China. Anyone who doesn't believe that is frankly naive. I agree. Google's only care is for profit.

That's what every private company care for. They can try to hide it, disguise it, make it easy to forget, at the end of the day if they don't make money everything is over.

That's not actually true. Every company needs to profit, of course, but not every company has that as their sole concern.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#265

Post by JohnFen »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #142
o10449366 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly admire you for taking a stance and fighting for what you believe in. Figuring out what you can and can't stand for morally is a difficult task. I hope others can feel inspired by you to examine whether they can, in good conscience, continue to support Google. I am not advocating defeatism. I am simply trying to be realistic. It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more lenienc…

> It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more leniency than their competitors, even when they're all guilty of the same crimes. I would posit that Google is given slightly more leniency because their infractions always tend to be slightly less bad. • Google tracks everything, but is ever-so-slightly more transparent than Facebook or Amazon, and the opt out process is ever-so-slightly…

> the opt out process is ever-so-slightly easier.

Oh? How do I opt out of Google's spying? I already don't have an account or use their services, but they still collect data on me from a wide variety of sources, both online and not. As far as I can tell, there is literally no way to get them to stop it.

I don't think Google has much of a high road here.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#266

Post by pcwalton »

echevil wrote: post #159
pcwalton wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My theory is that even if Chinese government was toppled, the replacement would still have same characteristics because that is the expectation that people have from their government. Taiwan is a counterexample.

Not a good example though. Many Chinese see the current Taiwan government as a failure and use it as an argument that China should NOT adopt western democracy

So what? Many Chinese people also see Taiwan as a success.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#267

Post by [deleted] »

aedron wrote: post #216
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more leniency than their competitors, even when they're all guilty of the same crimes. I would posit that Google is given slightly more leniency because their infractions always tend to be slightly less bad. • Google tracks everything, but is ever-so-slightly more transparent than Facebook or Amazon, and the opt out process is ever-so-slightly…

Personally, one of the reasons I have a little more hope for Google is the ownership structure. Larry and Sergei made some very controversial decisions when they went public with Google, in spite of severe pushback from investors, which tallies with my impression (right or wrong), that they are not only pretty reasaonable guys but also able to resist outside pressure, even to their own financial detriment. An example…

[deleted]

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#268

Post by [deleted] »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #234
BlackFly wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not that westerners come from a different set of base assumptions, it is that western society has moved past those base assumptions. Western monarchies were divine rights, people died fighting against those viewpoints. It is not an assumed superiority. We learn the lesson through our history, whether this lesson is right or wrong. We too had traditions of divine right, holistic medicine, censorship and similar,…

Good point. We changed as a society, and what we have now would not have suited us a few hundred years ago, and what we had then would not suit us now. If we had tried to introduce democracy into medieval Europe, it would have failed just as badly. But by forcing our values onto SE Asian cultures, we are assuming that they cannot come up with "better" answers, and assuming that our way is the only way. Maybe there's…

[deleted]

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#269

Post by [deleted] »

vore wrote: post #211
fireattack wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(2) people in China benefits from access to much better search and subsequently gets better educated over time. This is the point I rarely heard here, or any Western communities. As a Chinese, I was genuinely baffled when I first heard that there are people actually boycotting the re-entry of Google in China, instead of celebrating this milestone. I thought we can finally have a usable search engine. I guess we get…

The Chinese government is uninterested in letting Western companies compete on the same ground as Chinese companies (e.g. any company with a significant market share in China vs their foreign counterparts doing business). Entering China at the cost of 1) having to hand over personal information wholesale to the Chinese government in compliance with "local laws" (remember not to look at Xinjiang!) and 2) being forced…

[deleted]

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#270

Post by fireattack »

vore wrote: post #211
fireattack wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(2) people in China benefits from access to much better search and subsequently gets better educated over time. This is the point I rarely heard here, or any Western communities. As a Chinese, I was genuinely baffled when I first heard that there are people actually boycotting the re-entry of Google in China, instead of celebrating this milestone. I thought we can finally have a usable search engine. I guess we get…

The Chinese government is uninterested in letting Western companies compete on the same ground as Chinese companies (e.g. any company with a significant market share in China vs their foreign counterparts doing business). Entering China at the cost of 1) having to hand over personal information wholesale to the Chinese government in compliance with "local laws" (remember not to look at Xinjiang!) and 2) being forced…

Agreed with you. I'm not delusional to think Google's attempt of entry is "for Chinese people", just that practically it will help. And most importantly, it won't do more harm (some other people in this thread mentioned that it may help them to "export" censorship tool to other countries, which is a valid point.)

On the other hand, I don't feel Google's departure from China in 2010 was purely based on ideals either.

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