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NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

theguardian.com

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Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#261

Post by nine_k »

MatekCopatek wrote: post #182
yholio wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, paying living wages to thousands of unnecessary workers is quite expensive, regardless if they are employees or contractors. Unions work on both goals simultaneously, increasing wages but also providing job security to their base, inserting strong restrictions on who can perform certain labors etc. The more employees, the higher the power of the union, it's not like a competitor could spring up and…

But isn't this exactly what you're supposed to do in capitalism? Use your privileged position in economy to earn money (by definition at the expense of other people)? Now, I agree that it's not a very moral position, but we don't expect property owners in SF to keep rents reasonable. They should charge as much as they can, that's the only thing that makes sense from a business perspective!

"Use your privilege to earn money" is feudalism.

Capitalism (idealized) is when you use get an advantage by selling superior goods or services, while competing with others, without leveraging any state-given privilege.

We need (even) more capitalism in the US, if anything.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#263

Post by RhysU »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #246
tikhonj wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also interesting how people don't see public roads in the same way—people don't expect roads to cover their own expenses directly, expect free parking as a human right and bridle at toll roads or gasoline taxes. People need to see public transport as "roads that don't need cars".

Except that most of the wear and tear on our roads isn't caused by people's cars. People pay much more than their fair share of road maintenance via gas taxes etc than the industries that cause the most damage to the roads. Semis cause 1,400x more wear than cars [1]. [1] https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf

> People pay much more than their fair share of road maintenance via gas taxes etc than the industries that cause the most damage to the roads.

Maybe. Reduced transportation costs to businesses permit lower cost goods to end consumers. Your car transporting you to work isn't your only reliance on the road grid.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#264

Post by joering2 »

jessaustin wrote: post #243
joering2 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Unionized workers make very good money in New York. I didn't believe a friend of mine who only finish college was making $218,000 a year basically for early morning train track cleanups (device to pickup trash, stay away from 3rd rail), until I saw his bi-weekly paycheck with my own eyes. He's been doing that for last 5 years and they hire more people to do the same. What an insult to anyone with MBA, PhD., anyone…

To whom does you friend have to pay kickbacks, and how much are those?

That's the funny part, he is really the bottom of the food chain. Super anti-social he does his job and goes home period. Its just he has been there all these years and seen raise after raise when union got bigger chunks of money to spend. There is nothing more to the story I'm afraid.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#265

Post by gameswithgo »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #246
tikhonj wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also interesting how people don't see public roads in the same way—people don't expect roads to cover their own expenses directly, expect free parking as a human right and bridle at toll roads or gasoline taxes. People need to see public transport as "roads that don't need cars".

Except that most of the wear and tear on our roads isn't caused by people's cars. People pay much more than their fair share of road maintenance via gas taxes etc than the industries that cause the most damage to the roads. Semis cause 1,400x more wear than cars [1]. [1] https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf

it is my potatoes in the trucks. I can pay the road tax, or more for potato. doesn't matter.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#266

Post by CydeWeys »

ricardoreis wrote: post #238
CydeWeys wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the ferries are heavily subsidized and very expensive to operate, and they pollute quite heavily. They don't compare remotely favorably to the subway along any axis except start-up cost (it's cheaper to buy a boat and build some piers than to build a subway tunnel).

except start-up cost Which is, well, hugely significant when you think about it.

Cities should have a planning timeframe for infrastructure improvements with a horizon longer than a couple years.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#267

Post by avip »

martinald wrote: post #190
closetohome wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely -- and you can see this even in the article. They talk about raising fares and cutting service, with no acknowledgement that their primary source of income shouldn't be fares, and their primary budget cuts shouldn't come from reduced service. This article from last year does a much better job of covering how things have gotten to the state they're in - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-s…

NYC subway fares are insanely cheap compared to the rest of the (developed) world. $2.75 single for any distance is incredibly low. In London that same fare in rush hour would be anywhere between $4 and $15+ depending on the length of the journey (and NYC has much higher GDP per capita than London, plus the £ is on its arse at the moment). Even Berlin is marginally more expensive, in a much smaller & less economicall…

2.30$ CAD in Vancouver for 1.5h, you can easily cross the entire "city" on that price-tag.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#268

Post by Zhenya »

TheSoftwareGuy wrote: post #255
dwaltrip wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars and roads have plenty of problems, sure, but I have no idea what you mean by this "illusion of freedom".

He's likely referring to how (some) people enjoy driving because of the sense of freedom & control it gives them. But he is asserting that this is just an illusion. Honestly, I feel the same way, since most time I spend driving I spend sitting in traffic or something.

That's right (I'm the OP) - I love driving and work in the auto industry. The biggest pitch of the car(look at the commercials) is that your car defines you, and provides you a lifestyle and freedom.

However, there really is an element of freedom. You can drive where you want when you want. It's just that the average person sits in bumper to bumper traffic.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#269

Post by closetohome »

martinald wrote: post #254
closetohome wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought that fares should be more symbolic than a real source of revenue. They should definitely be low enough that even the poorest residents of the city can easily afford to travel on public transportation.

Why? Transport for London is close, if not past, covering operational (and some, but not all, very significant capital) expenditure from fares, property and advertising revenue. MTR in Hong Kong also is profitable, as I believe many Japanese networks are. Being run entirely from fares means you are not at the whim of politicians for subsidies and grants that can change overnight with an election, which makes it very…

I have no argument with transit systems being self-sufficient, nor with fares providing a reliable source of funding. But what needs to happen, ethically, is for the relief valve to be elsewhere when it comes time to balance the budget. Maybe that means more advertising, maybe it means cutting costs. But it shouldn't be taken from the users of the system, because their demand is flexible (as we're seeing in NY), and the inflexible ones are the people who already have no alternative and are hit the hardest.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#270

Post by BeeOnRope »

martinald wrote: post #259
BeeOnRope wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not insanely cheap compared to the rest of the developed world. Paris metro costs 1.90 Euros or more likely 1.49 if you buy books of 10 tickets or whatever. I've been to plenty of developed world cities where the cost is under $3.

Paris has a zonal system though that goes up past €10, which NYC doesn't do. I'm not saying that 'central zone' fares aren't ~$3 in many cities, it's very odd to only have one zone and the fare be that low. Keep in mind the distances that the subway does (and has express service on) make it similar to the RER in Paris more than the metro.

It's been a while since I took the Metro but I had been all over on it including to "end of the line" stops outside the boundaries of Paris and it was always the same price, EUR 1.40 (back then).

You might be thinking of the RER, that has different pricing.

I understand your point now though: it's the long fares that are insanely cheap, due to the flat pricing model. There are only a few comparison points I guess since very few cities have a "subway" system that large (some may have large transit systems that reach the suburbs, but they are often separate from the subway and with a different pricing structure).

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