Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#261

Post by thomasahle » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

xxs wrote: post #175

DerJacques wrote: post #2

While the promise sounds great, it's important to note that no law has actually been passed. Also, incentives to increase sales of electric vehicles are yet to be announced. Denmark's Scandinavian neighbour Norway is on the other side of the spectrum. Heavy subsidisation has caused every 2nd (!) car sold to be electric ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-environment-norway-autos/... ).

Isn't it ironic that most of welfare and subsidies actually come from the oil. Stuff like 25km of under sea tunnel leading to a town with sub 2k population is quite a common sight there. While Norway is an amazing country in many aspects, the amount of oil owned by a state company puts it in a rather unique position.

> Stuff like 25km of under sea tunnel leading to a town with sub 2k population is quite a common sight there.

It's not really common. They only have one tunnel that's 24.5km ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tunnels_in_Norway ) and it's not under the sea. The remaining are 10km or shorter.

The longest undersea tunnel is 8.9km and it goes to a city with a population of 8,215. It goes to an entire island though, so a few more people than that benefit.

Your overall point is completely right, but might as well get the facts straight, so people can compare and don't recite wrong information.

Norway doesn't actually show up much on the list of longest tunnels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_tunnels

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#262

Post by llukas » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

thinkling wrote: post #247

atombender wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that they were using US gallons. Whether this is data is accurate is another matter. According to the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), Europe averaged 46 MPG (US gallons, "normalized to CAFE test cycles") in 2015 [1], compared to something like 37 MPG in the US. This NY Times article [2] summarizes the report, with some nice graphs. [1] https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publica…

I share your parent's skepticism. It seems obvious that cars sold in the US are not averaging 37 MPG when the average car is roughly a RAV4 that gets 22/29.(EDIT: It occurs to me that the RAV4 may be classified as a light truck -- even so, I can go pick a passenger car...) As far as I can tell taking a quick look at your links, the difference can be in two things. First, these are fuel economy standards companies are…

If you compare US cars to EU cars on average then: - EU cars are much smaller - hp of engines is much lower

> "skepticism" "It seems obvious"

Pick one please.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#263

Post by Necromant2005 » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

Electro cars are great, until you start count. Ok, if Denmark population is about 5.7M and based on aerostat (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...) there're around 500 cars per 1000 citizen. It means country holds ~2.5M cars right now. In general (based on https://www.worlddata.info/europe/denmark/energy-consumption...) every Denmark's citizen consumes 20kh per day. 1 of 2 citizen has a car. Electro car charging requires 50kh (average electro car consumption). So It means Denmark must increase electric production in 5!!! times. In order just a charge those new 2.5M cars. I'm now talking about infrastructure requirements for this signigficant electric consumption increase, I'm pointing to the basic knowledge (by wikipedia) that around 50% of energy comes from coal and all renewable are less than 5%. COAL! MORE COAL I SAID!

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#264

Post by zepearl » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

IB885588 wrote: post #252

zepearl wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mmmhh, Audi is Volkswagen (and Audi's cars were involved as well in the emissions scandal), so I'm kind of sceptic about their credibility (meaning "let's not forget too quickly"). As they have as well a direct interest in saying "buying new/our cars isn't that harmful as you think", their doc makes me even more sceptic... :)

There are many other LCA studies, go find them. They all say similar things, and it makes sense when you think about how many gallons of gasoline or diesel a car can burn over its useful life (15-20 years).

Yep, I can agree with that :)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#265

Post by Necromant2005 » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:00 PM UTC

Coal price will rise. Oil will fall. Gas'll rise.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#266

Post by Zekio » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:01 PM UTC

snambi wrote: post #235

denmark is the size of bayarea. Yes, they can move to electric cars, because a tesla will NOT run out of battery by travelling all over the country. OTOH, do they even need cars? Why can't denmark just use public transportation and abolish cars altogether?

because public transportation in Denmark basically costs the same as owning a small car

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#267

Post by zjaffee » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:02 PM UTC

hydrox24 wrote: post #171

FullyFunctional wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumerism is bad for the planet, 100% true. However the "every 3 years like an average westerner" remark needs citation. In the context of the article (Denmark) it is certainly not true. Cars are so expensive (the 180% tax is absolutely real - I've paid it) that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more. In fact, the number of people with zero cars would be hard to believe if you come from California. Alas, t…

> (the car tax is) paid for by people in suburbia who _have_ to own a car to survive. I have been wondering for a little while now if the extreme libertarian position on private roads has been vindicated. I am not sure yet, but it seems possible where once it was ridiculous. Starting with (let us say) World war two, cities and states built out substantial, publicly funded roads and road networks in order to connect u…

A lot of roads were build by private developers at the time of original suburban expansion, where later they get handed off to the city to maintain going forward.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#268

Post by Zekio » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:07 PM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #254

Isn't Denmark the country that taxes new car purchases 120% of the price of the car already? I don't think they're a good indicator of the overall attitude of the EU.

yes, and you were close with 120% but it was recently reduced to 180% from somewhere north of that

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#269

Post by Annatar » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:08 PM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #256

Annatar wrote: post #77

Good luck with that, especially with banning ultramodern, low emission, high performance diesel cars. I was in Denmark last year to see what's going on over there and I observed the infrastructure very carefully: there is no widespread electric infrastructure for cars; it will be a gargantuan investment of epic proportions. Even if the infrastructure is put in, the current battery technology is only barely adequate f…

> Even if the infrastructure is put in, the current battery technology is only barely adequate for daily city driving. Barely adequate? We are reaching almost 500km on a charge now (around 300km is more common). This is Denmark we are talking about, not Russia. > and it's especially banking on invention of fast recharging You mean under 30 minutes? How often do you need that? Road trips? Note that they are not bannin…

"You mean under 30 minutes? How often do you need that? Road trips?"

Of course and of course!

"Note that they are not banning hybrids,"

Yeah but hybrids suck: gasoline automatics, and except for the Volvo, ugly sedans. If there were more sportwagon diesel hybrids with manual transmissions, that'd be a different story, but there aren't and probably won't be.

And what will happen to car enthusiasts in Denmark if this legislature is enacted?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#270

Post by Grimm665 » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:09 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #167

jstanley wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it make any difference whether it is a luxury vehicle or not?

Why does (specifically) taxing any luxury make sense?

If you are going to introduce a flat tax on a good--say 5% for all members of society regardless of wealth--that tax would affect the poor more than it affects the rich, even if it is functionally the same amount of money. With this in mind, it may make sense to apply such a tax only to goods that are purchased more often by those that have the means to pay the extra tax without needing to make sacrifices for it, e.g. a luxury tax.