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Hire people who aren’t proven

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Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#261

Post by shagie »

busterarm wrote: post #115
parthdesai wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what about when companies these days exploit the term "caring"? I like programming as much as the next person here but i'm not going to code 80 hours a day. I also like going to gym and working out, riding my bike, playing soccer and hanging out with friends. Companies these days expect you to have side projects or contribution to popular open source libraries while having a job. Oh and did i mention asking you q…

Related point, some companies don't intentionally exploit this but end up hiring someone who works and commits code cowboy style 14 hours a day. The company thinks that person is amazing while the person's coworkers hate working with them.

C2 called this a Hero Culture and labeled it as an organizational anti pattern.

http://wiki.c2.com/?HeroCulture

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#262

Post by paulie_a »

wrs wrote: post #49
ghaff wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CS/programming is almost unique in this regard in that there's a significant school of thought out there that, if you haven't been programming as a hobby since you were a kid, that's a disqualification. As you say, there is pretty much zero expectation in any other STEM field that you did much more than take some science classes in high school and liked them. (In STEM. Obviously you presumably don't apply to Juilliar…

It’s messed up in the other direction too, though. There’s no other STEM field where you attend a six week “boot camp” and expect to get a job. Or where people with two years of experience are “senior”.

Senior is ten years +/- a year depending on what they accomplished in my opinion.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#263

Post by lapnitnelav »

amorphous wrote: post #103

I recommend "Why Employees Are Always a Bad Idea" by Chuck Blakeman. It describes how to build a company where everyone is a stakeholder and not a child that needs constanct watching and stupid rules in order to function. No titles, no working hours, unlimited vacation time, you hire the whole person (not just the BS smile at work part). You work together because you want to find and make meaning. No CVs and skills a…

I'm about to do the same and I really like that philosophy.

Not sure we'll be able to implement that fully but at least in the spirit, because it clearly fits my worldview.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#264

Post by rllin »

not only does the industry not have a labor union, there's a culture of passion which is almost like having a negative union.

any time passion is involved, you are being paid less than market. cash is a more liquid currency and can in fact buy passion.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#265

Post by cashsterling »

I have run into some of these issues in the past when trying to get into software.

I'm a chemical engineer / scientist with some programming experience/skill* but I would suck at modern coding interviews because I don't program regularly in my past 3-4 roles. I would have to get up to speed on the job, with pre-prep before the job started, and I could develop into an awesome programmer. Most job posting are written such that I am 99% certain my resume would just be a 'fast pass' in the 10 seconds a recruiter might look at it. Oh well, engineering is pretty interesting too... so I really can't complain much.

*My programming experience and background: -- wrote Python/PyQt apps for parsing/analyzing/visualizing semiconductor device data, wrote sensor simulators/analysis tools in MATLAB and Python. Wrote image analysis routines in Java/ImageJ. I taught myself the languages and libraries and wrote correct and performant code.

I dabble in Python, JS, Julia, Rust, C++, various LISP's at home but I don't have a lot of time or energy after 8-10 hours a day of engineering work.

I have done a fair amount of PLC programming and control system design in the past. I also have 10+ years of post PhD engineering and physical science in several different fields and all of the capability and skill sets required to be successful in those fields.

Software gigs I have applied for in past generally have not even given me the time of day... oh well.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#266

Post by TheTrotters »

maxxxxx wrote: post #63
wrs wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s messed up in the other direction too, though. There’s no other STEM field where you attend a six week “boot camp” and expect to get a job. Or where people with two years of experience are “senior”.

Exactly. The standards are incredibly low. This can be a good and a bad thing.

Barriers to entry are very low which is great.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#267

Post by snowwrestler »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #255
snowwrestler wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I am not a big fan of the word "passionate" as the number 1 attribute for employees. I think there are better words like competence, commitment, empathy, independence, maturity, etc. There was a time some while ago (as I blow mental dust off my college literature studies) when "passion" was not a word that carried wholly positive connotations. It came with implications of things like irrationality, moodine…

What exactly does empathy have to do with CS?

Companies are made out of people. A person writing algorithms in the corner does not create value; in order to create value, they have to work with other people to make decisions, deliver work, help each other, etc.

Some of those other people might not know as much about CS, but might have other skills like design, marketing, management, etc. Empathy is a trait that helps one to appreciate and adapt to these differences constructively.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#268

Post by maxxxxx »

snowwrestler wrote: post #29
maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

By all means, you should use whatever criteria you would like to hire your own staff. But in general, I would encourage folks in computer tech industries to be hesitant to assume such a binary approach to evaluating prospects. "Did you code for fun in high school?" might be a useful question now, because software development as a field is so young that high school students can try out significant work easily. But in…

"But in general, I would encourage folks in computer tech industries to be hesitant to assume such a binary approach to evaluating prospects. "Did you code for fun in high school?" might be a useful question now, because software development as a field is so young that high school students can try out significant work easily.

"

Just to be clear: That's not what I meant with "caring".

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#269

Post by namanyayg »

vkou wrote: post #243
namanyayg wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing software development in high school requires a computer (even a ~$400 that is shared with the family is sufficient), interest, and time (so one can spend hours required reading tutorials/watching videos). Basically, nothing too much out of the reach of your average teenager -- with the exception of interest/dedication to the art. Doctors, and most other professions, cannot be practiced without a lot more invest…

> Basically, nothing too much out of the reach of your average teenager -- with the exception of interest/dedication to the art. My father grew up, went to school, and finished university in the 70s and 80s, in the Soviet Union, where none of those things were within the reach of an average person. He's only started programming towards the end of his physics PHD. Since moving to Canada, he's done ~20 years of program…

Of course, this question is only valid for applicants in their twenties. I don't think anyone in their right minds would expect someone in their 30s+ to be programming since they were teenagers!

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#270

Post by heurist »

ergothus wrote: post #158
dev_dull wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody looks for someone passionate for the job. Why would CS be any different?

"Passionate" in programming is shorthand for "cares for quality" AND "will improve on their own". Companies are unwilling or unable to train on the job (because it requires tech mentor resources they dont have /wont spare) so they are looking for people they can drop in and see payout for without further investment (particularly in time). I think it is a shortsighted strategy, but not one without basis. The supply pr…

It's a little dangerous to expect companies to train junior employees well when their focus is on making product/revenue. Generally they would prefer solving immediate problems over developing the craft, so over time most training would align with short-term solutions rapidly executed. Perhaps we need to be thinking about building trade schools as a service which can be hired by companies to institute part-time professional development for engineers, especially in junior roles, so that craftsmen be the ones pushing the field forward rather than the business analysts who make use of them.
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