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‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#261

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

Veelox wrote: post #260
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The crown prince might be given every advantage be that doesn't mean when the king dies the crown prince is best qualified to rule. History is full of examples. Thus because the crown prince will become king regardless of his current ability when the king dies it is not a meritocracy. Yes, there are exceptions. But for most of history the crown prince, is in fact the best person to rule. All of those instances are m…

>All of those instances are meritocratic? We'll admit the occasional error but would you at least say that bloodline aristocracy is often meritocratic by your definition? I would say that it often has the same outcome as a meritocratic system. Suppose if every US election, after deciding the winner, they rolled a 20-sided dice and on a 1, elected the loser instead. This would be democratic most of the time but it wou…

>I would say that it often has the same outcome as a meritocratic system.

Doesn't that seem even a little bit condemnatory of your conception of merit? Your meritocracy is frequently indistinguishable from aristocracy. That once in a while they differ isn't a great credit, it's damning with faint praise.

>I feel like what you are saying is that merit is independent of the training and experiences you receive. I define merit as the ability to perform the given task well. With that definition, you have to include training and experience because they have effects on ability to perform. So if you exclude training and experiences, what do you mean by merit?

Then why call it a meritocracy? Call it a knowledgocracy or something of that sort. Again, I find merit to be something that comes from within not from without. The asian girl's advantage over the black girl is entirely from without so it shouldn't be considered - they should have an equal chance to be admitted.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#262

Post by perl4ever »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #67
aiyodev wrote: post #59

It’s worth reminding everyone that Harvard is the reason there’s any discrimination in the admissions process. Students used to get accepted on academic merit alone. But Harvard wanted to covertly discriminate against Jewish applicants. The reason why you have to write essays about your extracurricular activities, for example, is because a Jewish applicant back then typically wouldn’t have any. It’s also when legacy…

Hell no. Optimizing solely for grades and test scores will get you rote-memorizing robots with zero personal skills and minimal potential. A completely merit-based, objective admissions system simply does not exist.

Lumping test scores and grades together seems to obscure that one was intended to fix issues with the other.

I think that a purpose of the SAT was to combat the undesirable effects of judging people solely on grades. It's meant to be a measure of aptitude, exactly because your grades can reflect how good your school was, how much you memorized, your economic/social class, grade inflation, and so on.

People who do well on the SAT (or at least who did on the old SAT back in the early 90s and before) did not necessarily study at all for it.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#263

Post by Veelox »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #261
Veelox wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All of those instances are meritocratic? We'll admit the occasional error but would you at least say that bloodline aristocracy is often meritocratic by your definition? I would say that it often has the same outcome as a meritocratic system. Suppose if every US election, after deciding the winner, they rolled a 20-sided dice and on a 1, elected the loser instead. This would be democratic most of the time but it wou…

>I would say that it often has the same outcome as a meritocratic system. Doesn't that seem even a little bit condemnatory of your conception of merit? Your meritocracy is frequently indistinguishable from aristocracy. That once in a while they differ isn't a great credit, it's damning with faint praise. >I feel like what you are saying is that merit is independent of the training and experiences you receive. I defin…

>Your meritocracy is frequently indistinguishable from aristocracy.

I think there is a big leap from saying the crown Prince is most qualified to take the thrown and saying a meritocracy is frequently indistinguishable from aristocracy. I think Prince Charles is probably most qualified to take the thrown but I don't want the British government to go back to mostly inherited positions.

>Then why call it a meritocracy?

Google defines a meritocracy as "government or the holding of power by people selected on the basis of their ability." So since it is deciding on ability which is dependent on training and experience it is still a meritocracy.

>I find merit to be something that comes from within not from without.

But what is that thing within? It seems like you have ruled out experience and skills because both of those can be bought by wealthy parents. Even hard work is something that can be taught. It seems like you mean something closer to potiential (future ability) than merit (current ability). Also, what do you look for as evidence of merit?

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#264

Post by rspeer »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #63
tzs wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually when organizations have diversity programs and goals, it is racial or pseudo-racial diversity they are talking about, or gender diversity, or both of those. To achieve such goals, for every 1000 students a school should have about 127 black students, 178 Hispanic students, 613 white non-Hispanic students, 48 Asians, and 34 others. About 290 of every 1000 Harvard students are legacy admissions. Legacy admissio…

Additionally, if a school admits an increasingly diverse mix over time, this should should impact the legacy admissions to become more diverse over time.

The legacy admissions will create a dampening effect on diversity, averaging it out with whatever it was 30 years ago.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#265

Post by MagnumOpus »

danieltillett wrote: post #242
IvyAdmisions wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lottery among the academically qualified students would produce a class with many fewer African American, Native American and Latino students which would be politically untenable. Those cohorts score much worse than caucasians and asians on standardized tests. The data is pretty shocking and closely guarded by the testing people who believe they'd be asked to shut down altogether if it got out.

This would only happen if you set the threshold too high. If Harvard wants to be an institution with lots of AA, NA and LA students then just set the threshold at a level where these groups can enter the lottery.

A lottery at any threshold will create a student body biased away from blacks/natives/latinos, since the entire bell curve of their SAT results is to the left of whites/south Asians/east Asians. (Unless the top students stop applying, which is an unacceptable outcome for any elite school.)

[1] https://i0.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/...

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#266

Post by SamReidHughes »

forapurpose wrote: post #259
SamReidHughes wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people complain about diversity in Silicon Valley, Asians don't count.

Right, because there isn't much racial discrimination against Asians (though perhaps among founders and CEOs), and not against white people and males either. There is against women and other minorities, so that would seem to be the place to focus our efforts.

There isn't much discrimination against women or other minorities either.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#267

Post by forapurpose »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #266
forapurpose wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because there isn't much racial discrimination against Asians (though perhaps among founders and CEOs), and not against white people and males either. There is against women and other minorities, so that would seem to be the place to focus our efforts.

There isn't much discrimination against women or other minorities either.

There is overwhelming and widely accepted evidence that there is discrimination and women and minorities.
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