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The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

gizmodo.com

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Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#261

Post by hosh »

ladders wrote: post #260

ive spent most of my last 10 years on a ladder due to my job. This is absurd. Aluminum ladders require practically no maintenance and are far far lighter. Weight of a ladder being a significant factor in set up speed, required manpower for set up, and ease of handling. A wood ladder is completely impractical. Fiberglass however is another great option.

From the article:

> Wood is resilient in ways which aluminum—now standard for fire department ladders—can't even compare. "You know if you take an empty coke can and bend it three or four times and it tears really easy? That's what aluminum ladders will do," Braun says. "They have a seven to eight year lifespan, after which they need to be replaced."

> Wooden ladders, on the other hand, can last indefinitely. "You can stress wood right up to its failure point a million times; as long as you don't go beyond that, it will come right back to where it was. They can be involved in a fire for a pretty long time; after that, it's just a matter of sanding off the top coat of material then inspecting the wood. If it's good we'll re-oil it, revarnish it, and put it back in service."

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#262

Post by curun1r »

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #219
curun1r wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL at SFFD giving any shits about costs. This is the same department that power grabbed emergency medical response away from dedicated paramedics in ambulances. Responding in full ladder trucks to take care of drunk homeless people...yeah, they do that, costing millions every year in added expenses and road repairs. But good for them for saving a few bucks on ladders, that must make a huge difference.

Coming from NYC, it is somewhat surprising to see such anger directed at fire departments. Here, the FDNY seems universally loved.

I've got nothing but praise and admiration for the actual firefighters in SFFD. They do shit for out city that no one else wants to do and should rightfully have the same kind of admiration that FDNY gets.

But for the people running the department, specifically those in those positions in the early aughts (naughties?) who maneuvered to eliminate dedicated paramedics from the city, I've got nothing but hate. I had friends who were part of ambulance crews who were forced to either transition into being full-fledged firefighters or get let go and have to look for work in neighboring cities. None of them wanted to run into burning buildings, so they all left. It was a nonsensical decision to gain political power and ended up increasing costs and negatively impacting a lot of other highly dedicated folks who should receive similar amounts of praise. First responders of all sorts, whether they be police, fire fighters, paramedics or otherwise, are always taking risks to help the rest of us.

I'd hope that New Yorkers would have similar admiration for the folks in ambulances that also put their lives on the line to help their fellow citizens. Now imagine that some fucks at the top of the NYFD decided to fuck over the ambulance personnel in an attempt to gain more political clout while simultaneously wasting a ton of taxpayer money doing nonsensical things like needlessly sending the large 2-driver firetrucks to the scene of medical emergencies. Then how would you feel about NYFD? You'd probably feel the way I do about the SFFD and draw a clear distinction between the men and women who actually put on a uniform and serve their community and the bureaucrats at the top who are wasting our money and destroying our roads.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#263

Post by zamber »

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #171
analog31 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A related anecdote: There was for a long time, a history of students in certain disciplines such as physics and some areas of chemistry, making their own tools and equipment. My dad had to build an NMR as part of an analytical chemistry course. I built an exceptional amount of gear for my graduate research project. Of course there's the bit about using cheap labor. But a side result is that you have a chance of actua…

It's called scientific glass blowing, and is a pretty interesting field that highlights some of what has to go on in the background for scientific research to progress. Some other reading: 0. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/symbiartic/httpblogssci... 1. http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-caltech-glassbl... 2. https://news.usc.edu/114014/uscs-scientific-glassblower-lets...

Nottingham University is looking for one for some years now. Mentioned in one Numberphile video.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#264

Post by mdorazio »

noer wrote: post #61
madengr wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I wonder why fiberglass ladders are not used?

Heat deteriorates fiberglass

Do you have any data to detail this? Fiberglass is glass fibers + resin. Decent resin doesn't melt or become weak with normal heat, it just thermally stresses at some point (we're talking > 180C at which point a wood ladder would be on fire). Wood also has issues with heat - it expands, which can cause buckling and cracks. I'm trying to find fiberglass temperature-strength data to figure out why it's not used in fire ladders and am coming up short.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#265

Post by dragonwriter »

firemancoder wrote: post #258
BurningFrog wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense for a job where 95% of the time is spent waiting for an emergency to react to .

Not true, especially in big city departments. Sure there are days when you run 3 or 4 calls and you get a lot of downtime, but most departments run 3000 or more calls a year. Do the math. But yeah utilizing their downtime is smart. And you're gonna build a damn good ladder and not cut corners if you know you're going to be standing on it.

> Sure there are days when you run 3 or 4 calls and you get a lot of downtime, but most departments run 3000 or more calls a year.

3000 calls a year is about 8 calls a day. Assuming the 3000 calls/year is per station, and not per dwpartment, that means a station responds to a call, on average, once every three hours.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#266

Post by arkis22 »

ellard wrote: post #247
curun1r wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL at SFFD giving any shits about costs. This is the same department that power grabbed emergency medical response away from dedicated paramedics in ambulances. Responding in full ladder trucks to take care of drunk homeless people...yeah, they do that, costing millions every year in added expenses and road repairs. But good for them for saving a few bucks on ladders, that must make a huge difference.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/us/san-francisco-firefigh... You're not wrong, but it's more that they are in a position to help and the city doesn't seem to want to have another organization deal with the homeless. They're not exactly gunning for the role of taking care of the homeless.

That's kind of a silly thing to say given that the government of SF spends hundreds of millions of dollars on the homeless a year.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#267

Post by curun1r »

gshulegaard wrote: post #237
curun1r wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL at SFFD giving any shits about costs. This is the same department that power grabbed emergency medical response away from dedicated paramedics in ambulances. Responding in full ladder trucks to take care of drunk homeless people...yeah, they do that, costing millions every year in added expenses and road repairs. But good for them for saving a few bucks on ladders, that must make a huge difference.

I am not sure what you are referring to. I was involved in a motorcycle accident in October of 2017 and I was treated by SFFD paramedics in an ambulance.

The fire department does have some ambulances, but they still respond to non-fires with fire engines as well. Prior to the unification of services, non-fire medical emergencies were serviced by ambulances and EMTs were not required to be firefighters. Now, all EMTs have to be firefighters. I had friends who lost their jobs when the switchover happened because they didn't want to train as firefighters.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#268

Post by TimTheTinker »

chrisseaton wrote: post #238
gshulegaard wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you are referring to. I was involved in a motorcycle accident in October of 2017 and I was treated by SFFD paramedics in an ambulance.

Why does the fire department respond to a medical emergency?

US fire departments are classed as "first responders", with a service level requirement that they normally arrive on-scene within minutes, usually long before police/ambulance/etc.

It makes sense to staff FDs with EMTs and give them responsibility for responding to all manner of emergencies (medical included), since they are already the first responders.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#269

Post by zrobotics »

reaperducer wrote: post #81
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And only if you're also about 40 years behind ladder tech - notice the stepladders in the "A view of the main repair facility" photo? They're nonconductive fiberglass. They're stronger than wood, lighter than wood, don't need to be oiled/varnished, don't require cutting down old-growth trees, and aren't susceptible to moisture damage. You can buy them exhaustively tested, mass produced, in whatever quantities you req…

>They're nonconductive fiberglass They're also not being used right next to flames. Yes, fiberglass can be made that won't buckle under both weight and heat, but not at the same price point as wood.

Because wood reacts so well to fires?

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#270

Post by tw04 »

mdorazio wrote: post #251
exegete wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also from the article: >There's a city-specific reason why San Francisco has stuck with wood rather than swap over to metals, and the answer lies in looking up. The high-voltage cables and wires that guide the city's (oft-maligned) public transport system Muni, and trolley cars crisscross above nearly every street, mean that ladders made of conductive elements are generally just too dangerous to use. >"I think there'…

I don't understand this. Fiberglass is non-conductive, so that's not really a reason to not use non-wood ladders. It is also generally stronger and more durable for the same weight.

Every fiber glass ladder I've seen has aluminum caps at both ends and aluminum steps.
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