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The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

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Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#261
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really true. New USD is created anytime someone gets a loan. The Fed impacts that money creation only indirectly by setting rates (not considering QE -- even with QE, the point remains: new money is created when a loan is made by a fractional-reserve institution) Edit to further elucidate: It isn't exactly the loan that creates money, but what happens with the money after the loan. It will almost certainly…

This is simply false.

You and I go to the bank and get two loans backed by the same reserve. We party and spend those new dollars which in part didn't exist before. Then we work to repay the bank and make the debt and credit columns agree in the books. Btw, the money of salaries we get could be borrowed too.

Another shot at it with a thought experiment. Everybody goes to the bank and borrows 10k every month. The bank never asks them back for the first five years. Result? Inflation, possibly hyperinflation. Same as if they would be printing money (and they'll won't get anything back when the five years are past.)

Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sympathetic to the inflation argument, but it doesn't seem to match what actually happens. For example, Bitcoin inflated by about 20% in a 20-minute period yesterday. The theory doesn't seem to match the practice here.

What he means to say is that the currency goes up, prices go down. So if a currency goes up in value, that's actually economic 'deflation', because the prices of goods go down. Now - I don't agree with any of the commenters arguments at all, but the terms 'inflationary' and 'deflationary' are used in that context. There are some that argue the inflation and deflation are not a function of the price of goods - rather…

I'm not sure what you're trying to correct here. Are you thinking I used "inflation" to describe an increase in Bitcoin's price? I wasn't: Bitcoin's price spiked overall yesterday, but there was also a point where the price dropped by 20% in 20 minutes, and that's what I'm referring to.

Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#263
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, you're sort of shining a spotlight on my ignorance here, but a few thoughts: 1. Maybe "fully nationalized" isn't technically true, but my understanding was that the UK was widely regarded to have a nationalized healthcare system. Not really interested in whether that's technically true at the margins unless there's some major policy impact. 2. "Cost-effective" is an interesting term, because it assumes we agree o…

> 1. Maybe "fully nationalized" isn't technically true, but my understanding was that the UK was widely regarded to have a nationalized healthcare system. Not really interested in whether that's technically true at the margins unless there's some major policy impact. Which countries do you consider not to have a nationalized healthcare system, then we can make a comparison? Note that even in the US, the government co…

By "nationalized", I mean where the state owns and employs a significant portion of the healthcare resources and personnel, as opposed to just paying for it.

Personally I find it telling that it is almost impossible to find people holding your positions in places where people have experienced these socialized systems unless they have the money to pay far more for care that is out of reach of most people.

Really? Then I think you've misunderstood my positions and you might want to try another read through my original comment. Unless you think that every other developed country in the world is clamoring for the exact NHS system? Because my point is that I'd prefer single payer or a robust public option to nationalized systems, not that I want the current US system.

note that you're referring to PPP adjusted numbers

Yes, because that's what makes sense. Why wouldn't you use PPP-adjusted numbers?

the gap between the UK and e.g. the US still illustrates the most important point

As I suspected, you're just defending the UK system as being superior to the US system. On this we agree, but it's irrelevant to my broader point.

Side note: why are Europeans so freaking defensive about their systems of governance? I swear that you can't have a reasonable discussion online about healthcare, taxes, employment law, etc, etc. without a mob of people from Europe jumping in to assure everyone that their system is the best and the US system for everything is horrible and we all unknowingly live in a terrifying dystopia.

We get it, you love the way you do things. I tend to agree on a number of issues, but I'm so tired of the condescending chatter about it. It just comes off as really insecure.

I've lived in Europe, I'd do it again, I LOVE Europe, but I don't think you've got it all figured out, or that your systems will always work everywhere.

What are you trying so hard to prove?

Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#264
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're mixing up the argument of whether property is just with whether property is coercive . The arguments you've outlined are drawing a distinction between which kinds of property are thought to be just by certain schools of thought. However, this is entirely unrelated to the fact that all forms of property are coercive -- enforcing them ultimately requires (the threat of) violence. Most people fail to make…

While this position is technically correct, it is absurd. By this logic, enforcing freedom from slavery is coercive as well, because it requires threat of violence.

Indeed, it is - which proves the parent's point. This would be an example of something that's both just and coercive.

Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#265
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they bought it with fiat currencies No. Some people bought it with fiat currencies. Others mined for it. Still others exchanged goods and services for it.

The number of people who mined for it without using fiat currencies to buy the hardware and energy is, I submit, such an astronomically small value I'd demand you prove to me it exists at all. They might exist, but I suspect their stories are singular. > Still others exchanged goods and services for it. I'm not sure what your point is here. It's not difficult to imagine existing state currencies influence these proce…

> using fiat currencies to buy the hardware and energy

The process had to be bootstrapped somehow. And given that the world's economy at the time bitcoin was invented ran on fiat currency, it's not surprising that fiat currency was used to help bootstrap the process.

> I'm not sure what your point is here.

My point is that your original claim:

> Buuuuut, they bought it with fiat currencies, in many cases USD. So... right there the entire idea breaks down.

is false. Just because the process was bootstrapped with fiat currency does not imply that "the entire idea breaks down."

Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#266
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider myself a pragmatic libertarian, which off the top of my head basically means that: 1. I believe very strongly in the sovereignty of the individual. 2. I prefer more open and incentive-driven markets. 3. I’m skeptical of governments, particularly large and powerful ones, because they’re inefficient, rely on coercion, and are too tempting as prizes to be captured for power, prestige, and wealth. However, the…

>> I personally don’t understand how anyone who thinks the government is awesome This is where I think some libertarians wander off from what those largely in favour of state actually think. I think a lot of people would agree there's a lot wrong with government, but most would also rather have one. They just want one that's run better. Your libertarianism seems quite pragmatic and I personally sympathise with the id…

I think a lot of people would agree there's a lot wrong with government, but most would also rather have one.

I would argue that most libertarians aren't anarchists, but it's a popular strawman tactic from those arguing against it (particularly on the left). It's almost a cliche: "You know where is a libertarian paradise with no government? Somalia! Hurr durr!"

I think we all agree that government has problems. Libertarians just think that the problems of government are inherent and fundamental, so the solution is usually in less government (but not no government), while "liberals" (huge spectrum here, I know) seem to think that the answer is more government.

And we all agree that we need better government, but libertarians think that public accountability works better the closer the citizenry is to the decisions being made, and liberals seem to favor more centralized decision-making, I guess for efficiency? I'm not entirely clear on why :)

Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#267
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Maybe "fully nationalized" isn't technically true, but my understanding was that the UK was widely regarded to have a nationalized healthcare system. Not really interested in whether that's technically true at the margins unless there's some major policy impact. Which countries do you consider not to have a nationalized healthcare system, then we can make a comparison? Note that even in the US, the government co…

By "nationalized", I mean where the state owns and employs a significant portion of the healthcare resources and personnel, as opposed to just paying for it. Personally I find it telling that it is almost impossible to find people holding your positions in places where people have experienced these socialized systems unless they have the money to pay far more for care that is out of reach of most people. Really? Then…

> By "nationalized", I mean where the state owns and employs a significant portion of the healthcare resources and personnel, as opposed to just paying for it.

In that case the NHS is a lot less nationalized than you might think: a huge proportion of NHS services are provided by private firms under NHS contracts.

> Really? Then I think you've misunderstood my positions and you might want to try another read through my original comment. Unless you think that every other developed country in the world is clamoring for the exact NHS system? Because my point is that I'd prefer single payer or a robust public option to nationalized systems, not that I want the current US system.

The vast majority of developed countries have systems very similar to the UK, with a mix of public and private service provisions. The exact mix of public and private varies, but then again even in the US about half all healthcare expenditure is through the government.

> As I suspected, you're just defending the UK system as being superior to the US system. On this we agree, but it's irrelevant to my broader point.

That wasn't anything to "suspect" - it was there in plain sight. But that was also just as an example. Pretty much every developed country have socialized healthcare that is both cheaper and providing proper care for a large proportion of the population than the US system.

> Side note: why are Europeans so freaking defensive about their systems of governance?

Because the prospect of "US conditions" is terrifying, to the point that "US conditions" is actually a term used in politics in some European countries used to scare voters with the thought of what happens if you let the right wing run rampant over public services.

>I swear that you can't have a reasonable discussion online about healthcare, taxes, employment law, etc, etc. without a mob of people from Europe jumping in to assure everyone that their system is the best and the US system for everything is horrible and we all unknowingly live in a terrifying dystopia.

Equally, you can't have such a discussion without a bunch of Americans trying to push the kind of deregulation that led to the festering mess that is the US healthcare system.

> What are you trying so hard to prove?

It's not that we're trying so hard to prove anything. It's that we find it offensive that you let people die on the streets to avoid applying known working solutions out of fear they're too left wing.

You don't need to pick the UK solution. Any solution from any of the wealthier developed countries is superior to the US system. And they span the range from almost totally socialized (Norway) to mostly private healthcare with a mix of private and public insurance (Germany, France for example).

What they all have in common is that they provide universal coverage and a regulatory system that put people first. Most of them are cheaper than the US. Most of them are

Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#268
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I personally don’t understand how anyone who thinks the government is awesome This is where I think some libertarians wander off from what those largely in favour of state actually think. I think a lot of people would agree there's a lot wrong with government, but most would also rather have one. They just want one that's run better. Your libertarianism seems quite pragmatic and I personally sympathise with the id…

I think a lot of people would agree there's a lot wrong with government, but most would also rather have one. I would argue that most libertarians aren't anarchists, but it's a popular strawman tactic from those arguing against it (particularly on the left). It's almost a cliche: "You know where is a libertarian paradise with no government? Somalia! Hurr durr!" I think we all agree that government has problems. Liber…

I don't much care for that, but like I said, I do like a welfare safety net, public health service and other public services.

I'm not saying it's all libertarians, but I have interacted with quite a number on the net, over the years, who would scrap those things entirely. I, personally, think inefficient government is a price worth paying for such things, but that we must seek to do better.

Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So about bitcoin...

Sorry. Libertarian philosophy is my bete noire. But the point is evident enough: I highly doubt libertarians can offer a credible macro-economic justification for the creation of a decentralised currency sustained by the whims of the market alone, and that they rely on the force of a prior moral theory. If the moral theory is void, so is the justification. I'm not sure how you would go about justifying bitcoin on its…

> being a store of value

You yourself have hit on the justification for Bitcoin's use.

Re: The Bitcoin Whales: 1,000 People Who Own 40 Percent of the Market

#270
Second to last paragraph provides some perspective:

"Among the coins people invest in, bitcoin has the least concentrated ownership, says Spencer Bogart, managing director and head of research at Blockchain Capital. The top 100 bitcoin addresses control 17.3 percent of all the issued currency, according to Alex Sunnarborg, co-founder of crypto hedge fund Tetras Capital. With ether, a rival to bitcoin, the top 100 addresses control 40 percent of the supply, and with coins such as Gnosis, Qtum, and Storj, top holders control more than 90 percent. Many large owners are part of the teams running these projects."

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