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Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

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Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#261

Post by otakucode »

sreque wrote: post #118
otakucode wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is absolutely rightly derided as the next COBOL because it is. It is the abstract concept of bureaucracy incarnated in code. But that means it will likely follow COBOLs trajectory. A million legacy systems written in it will underpin the central core of a million businesses, being the (entirely unrecognized) most important component of the entire corporate structure bar none. And those systems will need care and…

http://matt.might.net/articles/best-programming-languages/ "I don't think Java is all that bad, and I can enjoy well-done object-oriented programming." This is probably the most accurate opinion of Java the language I've seen, one that isn't tarnished by what anyone has seen in any proprietary codebase. I would rather program in Java the programming language than Javascript any day of the year, even if I dislike the…

Yes, I should have made it clear that Java the language is not inherently terrible. And the JVM itself is really quite nifty. It is unfortunately the infection of Java codebases (literally all of them I have seen with the sole exception of short Processing sketches made for graphical effects) with a mindset of design patterns as lego bricks used to build applications. Java did have a rough start though, there was clearly an edict at Sun to invent a nomenclature which deviated from any terminology commonly used by Microsoft which operated only to its detriment.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#262

Post by otakucode »

le-mark wrote: post #144
otakucode wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is absolutely rightly derided as the next COBOL because it is. It is the abstract concept of bureaucracy incarnated in code. But that means it will likely follow COBOLs trajectory. A million legacy systems written in it will underpin the central core of a million businesses, being the (entirely unrecognized) most important component of the entire corporate structure bar none. And those systems will need care and…

Spotted the one who's never written cobol (or jcl).

You are correct that I have never written COBOL (or JCL for that matter), though I'm not sure why what I said would indicate such a thing. I have seen COBOL and working COBOL systems. They are absurdly verbose. That feels like a hyperbolic understatement, really. Everything is very structured, in the nature of micromanagement in organizations, formed in that way in order to intentionally forbid flexibility. Is the COBOL I have seen 'old fashioned' perhaps? It was well over a decade ago, closer to 2, since I've looked at any. Perhaps there is a 'lightweight' COBOL?

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#263

Post by spac »

pmontra wrote: post #62
lliamander wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then let me ask: how do you make it past 40 in software? Specifically, how do you position yourself so that you are actively sought after (rather than merely employable)?

I'm 50 and I've been a freelancer since 2006. I position myself either as developer (Rails and jQuery back then, still Ruby and Python and Elixir now, I'm starting to code with React) or architect and coordinator of developers. That works well with small companies. I attend to tech events in my city (Milan, Italy) and I organize an event myself. It's a good way to keep the word of mounth going on. I don't know if thi…

And how has that worked for you financially?

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#264

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tptacek wrote: post #247
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By sinking your precious time invests sure. But you won’t be able to claim you have 20 years of experience in X anymore, you will be a newbie for awhile. That, and your PhD is already in something else...your papers are already published in other conferences....it can be a problem trying to move from say PL to ML.

I don't think getting a PhD is an especially good maximize-earnings plan.

I wouldn’t disagree with that :).

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#265

Post by mattmurdog »

stochastic_monk wrote: post #252
mattmurdog wrote: post #195

When you claim to be a senior engineer with 20 years of experience and you don't know what ES6 is then you don't deserve a job.

The world isn't web development. Some of us do other things, you know.

I can only speak about building web apps with Google. Replace ES6 with anything else.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#266

Post by mattmurdog »

halfknot wrote: post #219
mattmurdog wrote: post #195

When you claim to be a senior engineer with 20 years of experience and you don't know what ES6 is then you don't deserve a job.

Says someone that insinuates javascript is applicable to all forms of software engineering... This is what's really wrong with software engineering: we have young, cocky and mostly ignorant people doing the hiring. From CEO's riding daddy's coat-tails while trying to pretend to run a company, all the way to college grads that think their training as a flaming-hoop jumper is the pinnacle of engineering. You do this to…

To say that it is not is also makes that person not hireable.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#267

Post by agumonkey »

tptacek wrote: post #71

I was going to add this as a reply to a comment downthread but I think it's too important to bury. The fundamental rule of career progression in the technology industry is to position yourself as a domain expert in something more specific than "programming" . It's very difficult to "own" "programming" in a way where you can use scarcity to drive integer multiple increases of the median salary. It is not as difficult…

Similar to the notion that you're only worth what your client think; programming was a mean to an end (even though now we need to make programs structured and enjoyable).

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#269

Post by mandeepj »

tptacek wrote: post #71

I was going to add this as a reply to a comment downthread but I think it's too important to bury. The fundamental rule of career progression in the technology industry is to position yourself as a domain expert in something more specific than "programming" . It's very difficult to "own" "programming" in a way where you can use scarcity to drive integer multiple increases of the median salary. It is not as difficult…

I thought "generalists" are evergreen. These big tech companies are mostly (or always) looking for generalists because they understand the basics so well that they can do anything.

Re: Is software development really a dead-end job after age 35-40?

#270

Post by kelnos »

amyjess wrote: post #229
tptacek wrote: post #71

I was going to add this as a reply to a comment downthread but I think it's too important to bury. The fundamental rule of career progression in the technology industry is to position yourself as a domain expert in something more specific than "programming" . It's very difficult to "own" "programming" in a way where you can use scarcity to drive integer multiple increases of the median salary. It is not as difficult…

TBH, I really don't care about career advancement. I don't need "half-mil-a-year offers" to fund my lifestyle, so as long as I can continue to draw a steady paycheck, I'm good. Not everyone's a climber, and being in "a dead-end job" isn't really a bad thing if you're not ambitious. I'd just like to spread the message that it is absolutely OK to plateau. You don't need to be a renowned domain expert, you don't need to…

The problem becomes when you're a 50 year old individual contributor who gets laid of when the company isn't doing well, and then you can't get a job because of a mix of ageism and the fact that you don't have any in-demand specific skills beyond "can program".

Not saying this will definitely happen, but it's a risk, and you don't need to be a ladder-climber to protect against it.

I think most people would probably do better if they just stopped allowing their expenses to grow with their income, and saved and invested more, both in equities and in forms of passive income (like rental real estate). That way, not only are you insulated from shifts in the industry around your primary employment, but you can also probably retire early.

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