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Why Ageism Never Gets Old

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261–270 of 272 posts

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#261
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my boss asked me to work on a raygun, I would be ethically required to refuse and potentially to report him to the relevant authorities So Canada has no arms industry? I call shenanigans.

> So Canada has no arms industry? I call shenanigans. Whether or not Canada has an arms industry is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it's unethical to build weapons. Having an ethical obligation and acting on it are two different things. People can argue about the philosophy around the ethics of creating weapons. It could be argued that every engineer working on creating weapons is violating the ethical r…

It could be argued that every engineer working on creating weapons is violating the ethical requirements of being an engineer.

If that were true, wouldn't the professional body expel them from membership? Or perform some other form of sanction? Which it hasn't - ever, to my knowledge.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies I've worked with recently are having trouble finding C-capable developers, particularly C developers who have the first clue about 'modern' developments like CI and CD, or git. As is always the case when a claim is made about "companies having trouble finding developers" of some sort: Are they actually having trouble finding developers despite offering top-of-market salary, remote work and gold plated ben…

Paying more isn't really a global answer. Sure, I can pay more to grab you from someone else but then that other employer is short staff. Remote work may be answer for connecting lonely employees and employers, but remote work has its difficulties.

It depends - in the UK in particular a lot of salaries for tech folk are very low. So those with smarts and ambition either leave the country or head into (middle-)management hell.

A few more well=-paid positions might make a difference to the perceived value of technical staff in the country's small to medium businesses.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#263
post #204
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked in C, embedded and server-side, for about 15 years of my 17 year career. Companies I've worked with recently are having trouble finding C-capable developers, particularly C developers who have the first clue about 'modern' developments like CI and CD, or git. C is a language invented in the 70s. If you kept up with thread APIS when they became usable in the late 90s you could quite easily have had a 40 ye…

Would you mind sharing some contact information for these companies looking for C developers? I have been working as a contractor myself and while I currently seem to have no problem finding projects involving javascript, companies actively looking for C developers seem to be little shy in my area. I suspect you are from the US, and I am from Europe, so this might be a problem. But still, if you are willing to write…

I'm based in the southern UK right now, and a place I am leaving today is looking for C folks. They seem open to contracts. The work is not that interesting, being mostly small pieces of maintenance. The money is OK though.

If that's interesting, reply in the positive here and I'll ping you the details of the company and the agency I've been working through. They have a bunch of people from around Europe, and AFAICT one travels in from Germany each week.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#264
post #239
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you think anyone other than the creator of the TCPIP protocol could fill that role regardless of age? Not to argue with you but if we want to have fun with question... it's not "Chief TCPIP Evangelist" but "Chief _Internet_ Evangelist" . If "internet" is the key word, we don't have to be limited to an arbitrary point in the network stack and pick a person from it. If we go lower and more foundational to the "inte…

> If we really embrace "internet evangelist", maybe the best person is none of the technical guys but a 19-year old college dropout from Africa. Ok, now you're just being contrarian, but I'll play along. Maybe you're right, maybe the 19-year old college dropout from Africa is the best candidate for the position. So while you play armchair head of HR, care to explain to me how you unanimously align the merit of every…

>Ok, now you're just being contrarian, but I'll play along. Maybe you're right, maybe the 19-year old college dropout

The point wasn't to annoy you. I used the college dropout as an extreme example because when Vint Cerf gives talks under the banner of "internet evangelism", he doesn't actually use any of his technical TCPIP specific knowledge to do the cheerleading. (But I'm also not saying the Cerf is the wrong guy for that role.)

>explain to me how you unanimously align the merit of every candidate in the pool with respective open positions

This is actually impossible to accomplish. The problem is:

(1) desirable characteristics are multidimensional

(2) undesirable characteristics are also multidimensional

(3) "fairness" of evaluation and outcome cannot be unanimously agreed upon from the employer _and_ from the candidate _and_ from the outside non-participants that compile statistics on job acceptance/rejection interactions

(4) any qualifications with a non-age & non-years-experience label such as "Rust expertise", or "culture fit", or "on-call weekend rotations required" will be _perceived_ as "age discrimination" or other discrimination. This is related to (3) that "fairness" cannot be universally be agreed upon.

All items above are also subjective. We are compressing multidimensional factors into a single outcome of "accept/reject". The multidimensions remain subjective and possibly unable to be articulated but the rejection of a candidate is an objective fact and is directly observable. There is no difficulty articulating the binary outcome that the candidate was accepted/rejected.

>So then shouldn't it be illegal to list # years of experience as a requirement?

I think you interpreted an unintended idea from my "Rust" example. I'm saying that even if an employer specifies a desired attribute in the job listing with no malicious intention of age discrimination, the actual candidate pool will be skewed and be _perceived_ as age discrimination and thus -- it can be argued by some that it _is_ "stealth age discrimination".

For example, if a job listing specifies "candidate will have enterprise resource management expertise with at least 2 previous full life-cycle implementations from fit requirements gathering to production go live", the candidate pool will heavily skew towards the 30-somethings and 40-somethings. Complex ERP implementations can take ~5+ years so asking the candidate to have 2 of them under their belt will be near impossible for 20-somethings.

Likewise, a COO job listing requiring "previous profit & loss responsibility of at least $10 million" will heavily skew towards 40-somethings and 50-somethings. Very few 20-somethings will have leadership responsibility over a $10 million division -- unless he was a young founder of his own company like Mark Zuckerberg. (And obviously, 20-year old founders do not answer others' corporate job listings so they won't be in the candidate pool.)

Even if employers leave out words like "years of experience" and instead, substitute "expertise" or "previous responsibilities", the world can always find an argument for "unfairness".

My comment you replied to was just observing an unavoidable perception rather than making any recommendations on how to write job postings.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#265
post #167

Ageism Burnout Change what you call it and the conversation changes. It depends on the narrative the author wants to push. Those two things are related. The middle age software dev you burned out then tossed aside has the children most likely to be software devs. You spoil your reputation with the kids before they're even old enough to apply at your company. You've also increased the chance that, due to unstable home…

As someone who has been developing software for many different companies over the past 21 years (and counting) I am discouraging my kids from going into this field. I want them to know how to code and know not to be afraid of electronics as well as curious about what's in the box and how it is trying to shape their behavior. But as a career, software developer for me has only been good for taking a guy from a blue collar family with few prospects and give him (me) a halfway decent living to raise a family on. Had I had better advice before college, there were many better avenues for someone with my abilities. I really feel like I missed the boat somewhere and was just too stubborn to notice, or maybe my personality wouldn't lend itself to other roles, who knows? Anyhow, I am hoping I bootstrapped my kids into a better life trajectory.

I'm hoping my kids surpass me and find careers that are more sensible, lucrative, and rewarding.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish companies saw it this way. My company is downsizing and I've been interviewing like crazy. 5 years ago when my tech stack was hot I had to fight off companies, now I feel they are just humoring me. I make it clear in my cover letter that I am capable of picking up new technologies and languages with ease, which if you look at my resume and my personal projects on github is pretty plain and obvious -- I have 15…

If you're capable of picking up new technologies and languages with ease, then why don't you? For example, learning a new programming language every year for fun is a decent exercise that makes you better with your "current work tool" as well, keeps your tech stack perpetually up to speed, and isn't that hard - the second language takes significant time, the 15th (for 15+ years of professional experience) brings lots…

Because it would be nigh impossible to learn every tech/language for every job you are considering interviewing for.

Would you spend a week learning a new tech stack for an upcoming interview, with the knowledge that they might not hire you? Only to restart the learning process again next week when you interview at another shop?

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never compete on price. Provide something that nobody else can and stick with it, otherwise it's a race to the bottom. Those companies that hire the cheapest labour will get the quality they pay for. Let them, it's not your problem. There are enough who care about doing it right that they will eventually find you and will pay you according to the value you bring.

That depends where you live of course. The smaller cities have so little tech companies that it's hard to find any tech job, irrelevant of the price.

If you want to make money doing something you love, you have to be willing to do what it takes to do that thing. You either have to play in the market as it is defined, make the market change to the way you want to do things or be willing to relocate to make it happen.

Why do you think all the most highly paid actors and actresses are in Hollywood? Do you think they all started life there or do you think they moved there from all over the world because that's where their market is and that's what they love doing?

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#268

Well, I am 37 and in my Junior year of a Computer Science degree. I'm not gonna lie, this freaks me out a bit. I do live on the east coast though, hopefully that will help some.

Trust me, it's not a problem. I got a CS degree at 35, now I'm 46, and I look "young" for my age (30's probably). I theorize this leads everyone to assume/perceive I'm younger than I actually am. In my location (mid west, metro of a major city) senior develoopers are in hot demand. So I've never perceived ageism to be a problem.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#269
post #263
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind sharing some contact information for these companies looking for C developers? I have been working as a contractor myself and while I currently seem to have no problem finding projects involving javascript, companies actively looking for C developers seem to be little shy in my area. I suspect you are from the US, and I am from Europe, so this might be a problem. But still, if you are willing to write…

I'm based in the southern UK right now, and a place I am leaving today is looking for C folks. They seem open to contracts. The work is not that interesting, being mostly small pieces of maintenance. The money is OK though. If that's interesting, reply in the positive here and I'll ping you the details of the company and the agency I've been working through. They have a bunch of people from around Europe, and AFAICT…

Sure, that sounds interesting, and I guess just asking is not going to hurt anyone. Since I am from northern Germany southern UK should not be completely impossible to reach.

Re: Why Ageism Never Gets Old

#270
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are avoiding older candidates because of presumptions about them in terms of work ethic or compensation expectations, you are wrong. If you are advertising below-market salaries and expecting >40 hr work weeks and only attract younger people, there is nothing wrong with that. You don't seem to understand how discrimination works: the advertisement you describe discriminates against older workers because of h…

You don't seem to understand how discrimination works - any separation of people according to some criteria is literally discrimination, however, illegal discrimination is one done according to certain protected characteristics (including age) without a legitimate business need (e.g. actors for a particular commercial). Offering below-market salaries for 80 hour work weeks isn't illegal age discrimination even if thi…

Legal discrimination can occur in explicit, discrete instances, such as your example about this particular man. Illegal discrimination can, too. But illegal discrimination can also occur in a systemic, implicit way.

Systemic bias exists. One manifestation of that in this industry is the signaling in certain job descriptions and hiring practices. We needn't point to explicit, specific examples (e.g. "hiring manager told me point-blank 'sorry, we do not hire people over 30'") to see a broader effect.

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