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Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#261

Post by linkregister »

watwut wrote: post #190
linkregister wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that the plaintiffs in this case didn't do side projects?

Well, majority of software developers don't do side projects, especially not those in high paid difficult positions. Those people put all strength they have into work itself. Employers don't even care all that much about side projects. So, it is safe bet. This whole thread is stupid red herring. It has nothing to do with reality of working in corporation. It has zero to do with skills required in those high positions…

Thank you for getting to the crux of the issue. It is simple gate keeping.

Indeed, startup founders and great engineers get absorbed in their work and spend time on it.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#262

Post by linkregister »

in3d wrote: post #174
linkregister wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true. People didn't give two shits about the ladies and doing the tiny useless portion of the world known as software they occupied 50 years ago - back then it was less glamorous and less money involved. Yes, women used to dominate software development. Until the money and prestige started coming in, then men started dominating the profession. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmin...

The article you cite is fluff and doesn't support the statement that "women used to dominate software development." It mentions the "Computer Girls" article from the 1967 Cosmopolitan, but here is what's in it: "At one point the author speculates, seemingly without irony, about the “ the chances of meeting men in computer work. ”(The conclusion she comes to is that these are “ very good, ” as the field was currently…

Thanks for providing this alternate perspective and invalidating my source. I will reconsider my position.

Can you account for the significant amount of women computer scientists making ground-breaking discoveries? Grace Hopper, et. al. Were the outliers?

I'm asking because I genuinely am unsure.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#263

Post by TeMPOraL »

brad0 wrote: post #258
TeMPOraL wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its one of those axioms of software development I've learned, in order to do good work you have to do mountains worth of waste work. It suggests an obvious question though: can we do better? Can we avoid having to do "mountains worth of waste work" before getting to do the "good work", or is the former a necessary prerequisite for the latter?

I believe we can reduce the amount of waste work by doing deliberate practice. This means really analysing what you did and how it could be better. Also doing a small amount of work each day is much better than a large amount once a week. Take a large task and break it down into tiny manageable chunks that you can analyse. There's tons of material out there that has best practices for mastering anything.

It's not just about skills, but also about knowing what problems to solve and being in the position to solve them. I wonder if we can side-step having to do waste work in the latter cases.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#264

Post by bandrami »

bitlax wrote: post #260
bandrami wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does a confounding variable have to do with anything here? The question is "do women make lower wages than men"? You are adding confounding variables I assume because you are uncomfortable with the fact that the answer is "yes", but are less uncomfortable if there's some reason that it's yes other than "people deliberately pay women less". Of course there are reasons women make lower wages than men. That doesn't…

Why do you think the gap itself is a problem as an outcome?

Because in every economy we've looked at, gender income parity is strongly correlated with overall economic growth. In addition, research on microlending suggests that this link is statistically co-causal (improving either one improves the other).

If you prefer a more intuitive take, most of the attempts to dismiss the gender wage gap say things like "women take more time off for families" and "women choose lower-paying occupational fields". But there's no a priori reason those activities and fields should not be more remunerative than they are, and there is evidence that making them more remunerative is beneficial to the economy as a whole.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#265

Post by slavak »

bandrami wrote: post #247
slavak wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welp, that's the whole field of statistics down the drain! Who needs complex analysis and accounting for confounding variables when the answer is simply "Big number good, small number not good!"

What does a confounding variable have to do with anything here? The question is "do women make lower wages than men"? You are adding confounding variables I assume because you are uncomfortable with the fact that the answer is "yes", but are less uncomfortable if there's some reason that it's yes other than "people deliberately pay women less". Of course there are reasons women make lower wages than men. That doesn't…

Suppose women get paid less because they work less hours (this is actually part of the reason); Do you suggest women should get paid more per hour simply on account of being born with a vagina?

What if women get paid less because they tend to pick professions that happen to be lower paying? (This is also true.) Do you suggest we just give them raises? What if the reason the profession is lower paying is because businesses in the field have lower margins? Where are they supposed to get the money for these raises, take it out of the men's paychecks? Speaking of, do you give raises to everyone working in the lower-paying field, or just the women?

See, I think the bone of contention here is that you assume the problem is women being paid less. Most people have no problem with women being paid less; Their problem is with women being paid less SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY'RE WOMEN. This is why very few people are comfortable with the solution of "just pay all women more." Paying someone more because of their gender is literally the definition of sexism.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#266

Post by nucleardog »

bandrami wrote: post #216
apk-d wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The confusion here is between "women get paid less on average" and "women get paid less on average because of sexist treatment/assumptions". If the latter, more specific statement is true, then we have a problem. However, if women are paid less because of less career-oriented personal life choices, maybe making an issue out of it is an overreaction. Left-handed people earn less on average than righties. Tall people e…

Why are the motivations of the people paying women important to you? The gap is an outcome of a complex system, and the outcome is what is problematic.

Because discrimination is bad. Fighting discrimination is fighting for equality of opportunity. This makes sense and we all basically agree it's the right thing to do.

Unequal outcomes are okay. Fighting unequal outcomes is fighting for equality of outcome and it's unfair and makes no goddamn sense in a society where there is free will or any variation at all between the members.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#267

Post by DevinTheDude »

bandrami wrote: post #264
bitlax wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the gap itself is a problem as an outcome?

Because in every economy we've looked at, gender income parity is strongly correlated with overall economic growth. In addition, research on microlending suggests that this link is statistically co-causal (improving either one improves the other). If you prefer a more intuitive take, most of the attempts to dismiss the gender wage gap say things like "women take more time off for families" and "women choose lower-pay…

>evidence that making them more remunerative is beneficial to the economy as a whole.

How so? What difference economically does it make whether a male or female fills a position

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#268

Post by DevinTheDude »

bb611 wrote: post #230
to_bpr wrote: post #43

What is the end goal here? Companies being forced to publish and formalize pay tiers? Can Google publish a report on non-pay differences by sex at Google? Sick (or personal) leave taken, overtime worked, vacation time availed of, etc. by sex? Obviously with everyone being equal and doing equal jobs, the above shouldn't really be an issue?

> What is the end goal here? Presumably these women would like more money.

So what? I'd like more money too. Should I simply get more money because I want it?

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#269

Post by bb611 »

DevinTheDude wrote: post #268
bb611 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the end goal here? Presumably these women would like more money.

So what? I'd like more money too. Should I simply get more money because I want it?

I'm not sure why you are so grumpy and taking the questioning tone directed at me, given that my response simply proposed a possible explanation for GP's question.

The courts are a lever to improve compensation just like negotiation is, if that makes you uncomfortable that's unfortunate, but it is how the US economic system is structured.

Court cases have significant costs, they don't simply "want it" but hired (presumably) decently skilled attorneys to argue their case, have real social and personal risks associated with being publicly associated with this case, etc.

Re: Google Sued by 3 Female Ex-Employees Who Say It Pays Women Less Than Men

#270

Post by geofft »

drather19 wrote: post #180
AlexCoventry wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got a link?

WaPo article (with provisional ruling linked as well): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/07/16...

Well that's odd. Why would DoL need names and email addresses and phone numbers of employees? Didn't they already claim to have a statistical analysis of salaries based on previously-gathered data?

Is this related to the thing where Google says getting the data would be too hard (i.e., do they want to do their own analysis of competitive salaries based on scraping LinkedIn or something)?

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