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24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

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Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#261

Post by staofbur »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #70
staofbur wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most of the shit is concentrated on a couple of notable platforms: Windows and Android. Outside of that space I've noticed less productivity hampering nightmare tools and OS features. Really I get perhaps one or two bits of stupid from Linux a year on the server-side, usually when integrating it with Windows ironically, and on the macOS/iOS front I haven't had a notable issue since I switched about a year ago…

I'm using Linux for my daily work for more than ten years now and develop for MacOS since around 2000, and I honestly cannot confirm this. If you have a fast and well-tuned machine, the sluggishness of modern applications might not be so notable, but it surely is there, and then there are also many usability issues of desktop software on Linux. Not to speak of browser-based applications, which mostly have unusable us…

Let me just clarify that I don't use Linux on the desktop. I find it quite horrible to work with, particularly since the demise of Gnome 2. On the server and for development, it is fast and efficient. Most of the development work I do is from the Mac desktop to Linux machines.

I find macOS the "least bad" desktop experience. I think that's the true assertion from my initial comment. But I have a very high end MBP.

As a point for comparison which holds true across different applications, if I take the Photos application on macOS and port the data to the Photos app on Windows 10 and on Android, both of the latter are unusable with a dataset of 30GiB. I have tried this (in reverse!)

I haven't had any problems with Mail.app but I only use that for trivial home email. I use Outlook. Now that's a turd.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#262

Post by mmarks »

titzer wrote: post #45

Full disclosure: I work for Google on Chrome. A Chrome build is truly a computational load to be reckoned with. Without the distributed build, a from-scratch build of Chrome will take at least 30 minutes on a Macbook Pro--maybe an hour(!). TBH I don't remember toughing out a full build without resorting to goma. Even on a hefty workstation, a full build is a go-for-lunch kind of interruption. It will absolutely own a…

Not to take away from your point, but in my experience the vast majority of C++ build pipelines even at major companies can still be improved. Few people enjoy 'improving the build', it often touches everything, and requires discipline to keep it working. Most of the projects I've worked on have been larger than Chrome, I've seen the compile time for BioShock Infinite go from 2 hours down to 15 minutes with serious work on header use, precompiled headers, and all the other tricks people use. Epic's build system is a pretty good example. There is even a older book, Large-scale C++ Design, that is specifically about this point.

Starting with a full build that initially takes hours and it shrinking to EDIT: Times mentioned were for a full build, often you rarely due a full build, incremental builds should be majority. Places that don't make incremental builds 100% reliable drive me crazy and waste so much developer time. This is common, but it's a lame excuse. Just do the work and fix it.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#263

Post by staofbur »

taw55 wrote: post #147
jonathanstrange wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using Linux for my daily work for more than ten years now and develop for MacOS since around 2000, and I honestly cannot confirm this. If you have a fast and well-tuned machine, the sluggishness of modern applications might not be so notable, but it surely is there, and then there are also many usability issues of desktop software on Linux. Not to speak of browser-based applications, which mostly have unusable us…

Good luck on improving the situation as long as you have people running around who consider this all fine and normal. https://ptrthomas.wordpress.com/2006/06/06/java-call-stack-f...

This actually annoys me badly. One of the problems I see regularly is applications that fail to log enough of the stack to see what the entry point of the thing that actually went wrong is because the syslog packet size is set to 512 bytes. The problem is clearly syslog then, not the 12KiB of stack your app throws when something goes pop!?!?

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#264

Post by pjmlp »

benwaffle wrote: post #230
pjmlp wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit older here. C++ has been by next loved language after Turbo Pascal, since then I learned and used countless languages, but C++ was always on the "if you can only pick 5" kind of list. Since 2006 I am mostly a Java/.NET languages guy, but still keep C++ on that list. Mostly because I won't use C unless obliged to do so, and all languages intended to be "a better C++" still haven't proved themselves on the type o…

> I dream of the day I could have an OpenJDK with AOT compilation to native code with support for value types Check out http://www.scala-native.org/en/latest/ Maybe it will have value types after java gets them

I am aware of it, but when one works in teams at customer sites, we are bound to what IT gives us, on the sanctioned images for externals.

The presentation at Scala days was interesting.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#265

Post by pjmlp »

ajross wrote: post #243
pjmlp wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bjarne's made the mistake of having C++ rely on C's linker model, so it meant no modules. Now we can see it as a big mistake, but on those days probably it was one of the reasons why C++'s adoption took off. Also while C lacked modules, most Algol and PL/I derived languages supported them since the late 60's. Swift's case has the issue of mixing type inference with subtyping, so lots of time is spent there. All in al…

Straightforward integration with existing tooling was not a "mistake", it was a design point. There were plenty of competing runtimes even in the 80's that were better than C's linker model. C++ succeeded because it didn't create that friction.

> "but on those days probably it was one of the reasons why C++'s adoption took off."

I know "Design and Evolution of C++" quite well, and have been a C++ user since Turbo C++ 1.0 for MS-DOS.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#266

Post by pjmlp »

rwmj wrote: post #237
pjmlp wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where can I learn more about it in a high level way instead of delving into source code? I am curious how it is done in a portable way across all OSes, specially crude system linkers and OSes without POSIX semantics. For example, I imagine this can be made via ELF sections, but not all OSes use ELF.

These links explain the extra files: https://ocaml.org/learn/tutorials/filenames.html https://realworldocaml.org/v1/en/html/the-compiler-frontend-... https://realworldocaml.org/v1/en/html/the-compiler-backend-b... The cmx data could be converted to ELF note sections, but the whole thing has to work on Windows as well, so I guess they didn't want to depend on ELF. In most projects, you can add this to your Makefile an…

Thanks for the hints.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#267

Post by gens »

goodplay wrote: post #223
dispat0r wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a disk scheduler and mostly for spinning disks. I haven't seen a stuck mouse cursor for a long time in linux.

I always found this peculiar about linux; even when the system is swapping hard and application windows/window managers completely freeze, the cursor always remains responsive and movement rendered without so much as a hitch. I wonder if xorg has some sort of kernel support to enable this.

Not on my computer. Something like a WM will freeze while it waits in queue to read those 0.2kB it needs of the disk (poor software design, if you ask me). But the mouse will freeze when IO buffers get filled. Just writing a huge file to a (slow-ish) usb stick will make my whole computer freeze, including the mouse, because the kernel usb code doesn't limit the buffer to some sane size (there was a kernel patch, and there is an option, and even with it turned on the problem is still there) (note that the probable reasoning for that is the fact that usb sucks).

A mouse cursor, AFAIK, is a gpu thing, not that it matters (wayland, i remember something that, will use normal gpu rendering to render the mouse). In the UNIX haters handbook there is a section about X where it is written that displays used to have 2-3 planes (IIRC, 2 planes + a cursor plane. I do recommend reading the good book, as it is funny).

I remember some talk about better kernel buffers management just for things like this. Memory management in the kernel is one of those actually hard things.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#268

Post by Eridrus »

_arvin wrote: post #260
Eridrus wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the hate Windows gets, UI lockup hasn't really been a pervasive issue for me in years, whereas on my Linux desktop that's just a typical day.

My Linux desktop never locks up. I'd suggest messing around with a different kernel, double checking graphic drivers, etc.

I was probably a bit imprecise; I do sometimes get full lock ups where I have to reboot, mostly when running TensorFlow locally, but usually I just get lock ups that last It's at the level of "annoying, but doesn't impact my work", so I just live with it.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#269

Post by jdright »

mysterydip wrote: post #131
titzer wrote: post #45

Full disclosure: I work for Google on Chrome. A Chrome build is truly a computational load to be reckoned with. Without the distributed build, a from-scratch build of Chrome will take at least 30 minutes on a Macbook Pro--maybe an hour(!). TBH I don't remember toughing out a full build without resorting to goma. Even on a hefty workstation, a full build is a go-for-lunch kind of interruption. It will absolutely own a…

Makes me wonder about a distributed compilation. If everyone had a monster workstation but not everyone compiles at the same time, a theoretical networked compiler (which may already exist as I haven't really checked) could spread the files out among available workstations and bring things back together near the end. As the largest issue is the throwing away of duplicate work, I'd see it as a kind of reverse binary t…

The best solution today for distributed build is: http://www.fastbuild.org/docs/home.html

It is faster than IncrediBuild, even faster than SN-DBS and has multi-platform support, the only problem is that it requires its own build script.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#270

Post by threepipeproblm »

titzer wrote: post #45

Full disclosure: I work for Google on Chrome. A Chrome build is truly a computational load to be reckoned with. Without the distributed build, a from-scratch build of Chrome will take at least 30 minutes on a Macbook Pro--maybe an hour(!). TBH I don't remember toughing out a full build without resorting to goma. Even on a hefty workstation, a full build is a go-for-lunch kind of interruption. It will absolutely own a…

Wasn't this issue basically a driving force for Google creating Go? Or at least, a major design goal for Go was to get rid of O(n^2) compilation?
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