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Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

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Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#261

Post by adbachman »

dmurray wrote: post #235
adbachman wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because unless they've sold their ethereum, they don't have $14mil or equivalent CHF, they've got ehthereum worth that much. It's imaginary money, still, or I'm sure they would cash out.

Ethereum is exchangable for USD (or EUR, which is the currency in Lithuania). Calling it imaginary money isn't helpful here. I'm sure they have cashed out at least some of that. As for why they would take investors' money (not really investors according to the SEC) and actually build their product? Maybe they value keeping their promises, or their dream is to build this product and the $14mm is just a means to that e…

> Calling it imaginary money isn't helpful here.

"Imaginary" in the sense that it's unrealized in the currency in which it's described, exchangeable only if there are enough people willing to pay the market rate at the moment. "Unrealized" may be better than "imaginary", that's a fair criticism. So it wasn't $14m USD, it was ETH whose market value at the time of calculating was potentially $14m.

To pay employees or themselves I'd also bet they cashed out a slice. I'd love to see a tracker for % of ETH raised at ICO and subsequently sold off. I wouldn't be surprised if the recent flash crash[1] was an ICO selloff.

[1] http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-21/ethereum-flash-cras...

Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#262

Post by tetraca »

Pinckney wrote: post #136
bluetwo wrote: post #42

200 years ago in the U.S. regional banks printed their own currency. The constitution does not create a common US currency, although we have been operating as if it does. Will a non-nation state be able to generate enough credibility to run their own currency that lasts a lifetime? I don't know be I think it's interesting to watch. And if they do, it may force central banks into a corner by limiting their ability to…

Has there ever been any successful privately issued non-backed non-crypto currency?

On a local level there have been a good few, particularly local time-based currencies. I can't point to one that ever had national level adoption, however.

Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#263

Post by logfromblammo »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #135
the_cat_kittles wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they resemble ponzi schemes in that you get in early and benefit as more people adopt it. further, like all fiat currency, there is no "underlying" value, so your success depends entirely on how many other people adopt it. so, to me, it does resemble a ponzi scheme. my guess is that you take issue with the connotation of that word, implying its a scam. i dont think it is, but i do think it resembles a ponzi scheme.

Fiat currencies have underlying value. If you want to operate a steel mill in the US without getting arrested, you need to procure a certain quantity of US Dollars and remit it to the IRS. No, you can't pay your taxes with bitcoins. It has to be dollars. That's why the US Dollar has inherent value - you can redeem them for the right to operate a business in the US.

The exercise of a right cannot be taxed.

You can redeem them for the privilege of operating a legally distinct incorporated business entity in the US.

At a strictly technical level, I believe it may still be possible to live your life entirely lawfully, without being taxed, but the amount of legal analysis necessary to work out exactly how that may be accomplished is beyond me. It's far easier to just earn enough dollars, and then pay up.

(Note that relying on Supreme Court opinions will not get you to anywhere you might want to be if the IRS decides you need to pay them.)

Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#264

Post by dragonwriter »

EGreg wrote: post #259
realworldview wrote: post #148

So this is like buying food vouchers that I can redeem at a store that hasn't yet been built, if indeed it has been given planning permission and even if it does eventually get built, I have no idea how the service and product will taste. And I can't then report any irregularities. Ponzi? No. Unregulated gambling? Of course. Sign me up!

How do you know it's unregulated? What if it turns out te SEC issues a statement saying that all these ICOs were illegal because they were selling unregistered securities? Does ex post facto apply here? Can any lawyers chime in for those of us who are thinking about ICOs?

If it's a matter where the definition is a matter of regulatory authority then a redefinition cannot apply retroactively for purpose of criminal action. Ex post facto does apply.

OTOH, if it's just an existing statutory definition that the SEC looks at and says that this new thing fits into it, then there is no change in definition. Prosecutions might proceed based on the exosting definition based on acts before the SEC applied that definition to the acts in question, though it would be a question for the court whether the existing definition was being applied correctly.

I am not going to express an opinion, at this time, on whether any securities laws apply to ICOs in either way (either clear inclusion one existing statutory definitions or areas that are, under statute, open to regulatory action.)

Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#265

Post by istorical »

ShabbosGoy wrote: post #152
RexetBlell wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are as much a Ponzi scheme as gold (which has almost no practical use) and ugly paintings that cost millions http://www.therichest.com/luxury/most-expensive/10-ugly-piec... If expensive ugly paintings are not a Ponzi scheme, then cryptocurrencies are not a Ponzi scheme.

Ether is more like oil - it is a fuel source used to power smart contracts, token sales, and autonomous organizations.

Except that oil is scarce to due to the laws of nature and that gives it it's price, whereas ether is artificially scarce. You could make a new piece of software called Blether that provided the exact same service and you could instantly 'double' the supply. Whereas with oil, you can't 'magic' your way into more of the resource by deploying some code.

Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#266

Post by ericb »

calafrax wrote: post #215
mathieuuu wrote: post #38

I am amazed that in 2017, there is still people qualifying Bitcoin or Ethereum of ponzi schemes. Crypto currencies have a lot of problems (technical, economical, philosophical, ICO are insanes) but saying they are ponzi schemes is plain wrong. And it just takes 5 minutes of reading on Ponzi Schemes signs and basic knowledges of how those currencies work to understand why.

AFAIK the definition of a Ponzi scheme is a fake investment where no actual investment in productive activities takes place and all profits are paid out from increasing intakes. Bitcoin matches this definition exactly since pumping up the currency is not connected to any real world productive activity. Ethereum has some theoretical practical uses but most of the ICO nonsense is pure Ponzi. Defining a Ponzi can be dif…

>AFAIK the definition of a Ponzi scheme is a fake investment where no actual investment in productive activities takes place and all profits are paid out from increasing intakes.

The way to tell your understanding is wrong is that it would describe every currency, and every possible asset (land, valuables, etc).

Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#267

Post by pascalxus »

Alex3917 wrote: post #212
BoiledCabbage wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Weren't really associated with an enormous transfer of wealth on the same level as, say, the railroads or the age of sail. How do you predict wealth will transfer differently under blockchains than with usual state backed currencies. Not the literal (you don't need a bank), but societal? If block chains were to completely replace US currency, but society used them exactly the same, then they wouldn't be a transform…

I'll blog about this in the next few months, I'm going to wait until the hype dies down first though because I don't want to encourage other folks to make bad life decisions, and also so I can buy what I want to hold until the next cycle. What I would say though is that blockchain has nothing to do with currency, that's just a red herring out there to trick people into not seeing its transformative potential. It's ab…

> It's about reaching consensus and being able to make decisions at a society-wide level.

If this was really true, I could see how important that would be. Having better ways to govern ourselves, and putting 35% of GDP to better use than it currently is being used, would have tremendous impact. But, the Government and the majority will never in a million years allow this to happen and thus none of this "consensus" will ever matter (because it occurs outside the scope of our operating government). The real key to achieving what your alluding too is a massive political innovation which I don't see how bitcoin can bring about.

Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#268

Post by libertine »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #140
RexetBlell wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are as much a Ponzi scheme as gold (which has almost no practical use) and ugly paintings that cost millions http://www.therichest.com/luxury/most-expensive/10-ugly-piec... If expensive ugly paintings are not a Ponzi scheme, then cryptocurrencies are not a Ponzi scheme.

Gold isn't a "Ponzi scheme". Even if you believe that investing in gold makes no sense, and it's a useless metal with no practical purposes, and it's a bubble waiting to burst and so on, that still doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme. Even if all of those beliefs above were true, it still wouldn't be a Ponzi scheme. As someone else posted in here, Ponzi Scheme has a fairly specific definition which "Gold" doesn't meet.

Gold has a lot of practical uses.

Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#269

Post by ge96 »

Cakez0r wrote: post #165
realworldview wrote: post #148

So this is like buying food vouchers that I can redeem at a store that hasn't yet been built, if indeed it has been given planning permission and even if it does eventually get built, I have no idea how the service and product will taste. And I can't then report any irregularities. Ponzi? No. Unregulated gambling? Of course. Sign me up!

It's worse than that. In some cases, the coins literally serve no purpose. To use your metaphor, it's like buying StoreBucks for a store that hasn't been built yet, with no promise that you'll be able to redeem your StoreBucks for anything at all. For example, a project called Status ( http://status.im/ ) recently held an ICO in which people were tripping over themselves to buy Status's coins. It actually backed up t…

What do you use Ethereum for? I bought some but realized I couldn't easily use it as buying an Amazon gift card with Bitcoin.

Something about permanent storage and security (regarding Ethereum usage).

Re: Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering

#270

Post by ashnyc »

sharemywin wrote: post #256
ailideex wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would have loved to invest in amazon, facebook, etc when they where private. I'm sure if you wen't to them then and said here is money plz give share they would have considered it. Everybody want's to have gotten into the big giants when they were small - but there are many small cap/penny stock companies you can invest in now ... yet people don't. There are even non listed share trading options. And the reason i…

- try investing in a high flying startup as a non-accredited investor.

Thank you, that is what i am talking about. I don't mind trying my chance by investing a few K in a good idea, that can get me astronomical return.
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