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Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

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Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#261

Post by irixusr »

thriftwy wrote: post #222
narrator wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a friend who lived in Bisbee, Arizona, which is a small town next to the border that has a big border patrol station in the city. He said that because of the border patrol presence there aren't any illegal aliens around to do construction. He could only get cheap labor from ex-convicts. It made me think that typically ex-cons have formed the lowest rung in the economic ladder that illegal aliens now fulfill.

How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?

I'm not entitled to their labour, I can't afford higher price labour (well I can). Also, middle class salaries can barely afford current rates (in this forum we're mostly upper middle class or higher. A lot looks cheap to us. Do the math for the cost to salary for a child care facility. Costs a fortune even for us, yet the employees are getting paid peanuts. )

Which, if there is a real labour shortage, is fine with me. I'll just forgo the project I wanted to build, build less. Whatever.

But there isn't a labour shortage. At least not when you look at particulars segments, locations, past-histories, ect.

I'm not trying to push any ideology here. I'm just saying that the economy, actually, sucks despite what point estimates that grossly overgeneralize are saying. It sucked under Bush. It sucked more under Obama. And it getting suckier under Trump.

Why? I don't know. In the meantime hire a local contractor and pay them double their rate (or give the employees a tip == to the cost of the service < this is what I do to my monthly cleaners)

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#262

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #170
FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #14

Think about that for a second...$75K/yr for abhorrent, yet improving conditions and you'll come to the correct conclusion that contractors are absolutely fleecing not only the p̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ tax payers, but the prisoners themselves. Half a lifetime ago, I had to spend a weekend in jail while visiting a friend in California (accused of theft by a drunk lady who couldn't find her credit cards and fingered me instead of…

>It's kind of brilliant in a sadistic way, as if the prisons, their programs, food, and environment were designed to maximize recidivism. They are. In this Jon Oliver bit they cite a Powerpoint sales pitch from a prison corporation which notes that high recidivism rates are one of many reasons why you should invest. https://youtu.be/_Pz3syET3DY?t=673

I get sociopaths who have no remorse and don't really have a problem with them per se.

People who do this and try to rationalize their behavior with some flimsy excuse about putting food on the table or keeping America safe are, I'll say it, deplorables.

It's a socially acceptable form of mental torture whose aim is to break you down, not build you back up. In particular, the dehumanization you face from the guards makes one more anti-social.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#263

Post by thriftwy »

jaggi1 wrote: post #240
thriftwy wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?

> How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Sure! but will you rent a place that is $500 expensive while bringing no additional benefit other than it employed someone at higher wages ?

When I was doing renovation at my place, I think I could go for much cheaper labor. Deadlines will likely slip, tho, as quality of work. I would perhaps end up paying more for worse result.

Try to pay as much as feasible for the actual work, as few as possible for overhead.

You end up paying extra for 'cheap' labor anyway, in the form of higher taxes for those who have to pay them, that includes you. Less transparent economy leads to what is discussed in parent article. All what 'cheap' labor does is lining the pockets of middle men selling this snake oil. With your money.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#264

Post by kristopolous »

crusso wrote: post #203
eeZah7Ux wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up the word in a dictionary. It's perfectly legitimate and correct use of the term.

Words can mean whatever the speaker and the listener agree upon. I'm not arguing with the dictionary definition. I'm arguing that here in the US, which is a very relevant context for a HN discussion on US/CA prisons, the term slavery has special meaning and we shouldn't water it down by using it to describe every perceived slight.

This is a narrow, proper, and specific application of the term.

Must they have to work on a cotton plantation for you to make it count?

Oh wait, we call these prison farms and there are dozens of them...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#265

Post by irixusr »

jaggi1 wrote: post #240
thriftwy wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?

> How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Sure! but will you rent a place that is $500 expensive while bringing no additional benefit other than it employed someone at higher wages ?

Yes.

Well no, because of lack of general availability. But I pay extra for many things to avoid certain corporate behaviour. In a free market, that's my right. We're trying to wean ourselves off of Amazon, in fact, but we're a one-car family, and Prime is an amazing service.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#266

Post by nautilus12 »

Wait. Im missing something, if there is one employee per every 2 inmates that means each employee earns in the range of Min Wage to 152,000. How much of this is driven by employee salary and how much by administrative and over head costs? Is this just because the cost of living in california is so high they have to pay their guards six digits and above?

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#267

Post by thriftwy »

irixusr wrote: post #261
thriftwy wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?

I'm not entitled to their labour, I can't afford higher price labour (well I can). Also, middle class salaries can barely afford current rates (in this forum we're mostly upper middle class or higher. A lot looks cheap to us. Do the math for the cost to salary for a child care facility. Costs a fortune even for us, yet the employees are getting paid peanuts. ) Which, if there is a real labour shortage, is fine with m…

Imagine if less people will be working illegally and taxation will be more transparent, with more people paying their share, with less spent on prisons for people who could be gainfully employed - you will probably have free child care, paid for by taxes. Staffed with legal workers too.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#269

Post by irixusr »

froindt wrote: post #175
cpfohl wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with who on the whole but I'm going to play....Angel's advocate? (What do you call the person playing devil's advocate to the Devil's advocate?) There is a (relatively famous) prison in Norway where the rehabilitation is so effective that the prisoner's are given these jobs and are handed chainsaws, picks, the keys to the boat off the island. The prisoners are the ones ferrying people to and from the prison.…

What level of security is the prison? There are low security facilities in the United States where prisoners leave to work for the day and have to be back at a certain time.

Agreed. But how many ppl are in low security vs. max security?

How easy is it politically to build a min security facility in an area affluent enough to have day jobs for prisoners vs. building a max security prison in the middle of unemployed nowhere?

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#270

Post by coldtea »

mowenz wrote: post #136
coldtea wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Because the solution ("making prison a market") is what caused the problem in the first place. And because some things, like treating people in prison humanely, you don't want to live to the lowest bidder (though even that would be an improvement over the worse than third world s…

There is actually no competitive market here. I agree there is a lot of danger in profiting from incarceration. However, it would be good if someone figured out how to solve the problem and a profit motive is a reliable way to do it. In other words, the profit motive would have to work towards eliminatin the problem--that's my point about a properly regulated market. Maybe some other users here are right and I am nai…

The problem is that the prisoners are not the buyers, the taxpayers are.

Which means any "profit motive" can (and normally will) work against them (the prisoners). After all feeding them crap and stuffing them in tiny cells is cheaper than giving them quality prison time and rehabilitation opportunities...

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