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As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

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Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#261

Post by logfromblammo »

not_a_cheater wrote: post #90

I may or may not have cheated my way through classes. If I was to cheat, I would use the following methods: 1. Break up (or merge) functions 2. Switch ordering of declaration of variables and the ordering of methods/functions 3. Change names of variables/functions 4. Create useless variables to hold state (or condense/remove useless variables). 5. Switch ordering of math operations As long as you take the time to und…

So... the easiest way to cheat on programming assignments and not get caught is to google an existing answer and know how refactoring works?

It occurs to me that I may have been "cheating" at the majority of my paid job for years.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#262

Post by geebee »

glangdale wrote: post #47
glangdale wrote: post #23

This is hugely important as a lot of people see programming as a ticket into higher-end jobs and will spend as little time as individual contributors as they can. The idea that "oh, they'll get caught in the workforce" is not correct - quite often the plan in the mind of these folks is that they will try to fake their way through and be moved up into project management, technical marketing, etc. and never have their…

Here's the trajectory: Fake your way through basic CS courses. Find your way into group-work heavy projects in later years, possibly doing enough ancillary aspects of the work to be semi-useful. It will be likely that your other group members will find it easier to grin and bear it. Optionally: do a Masters or PhD. Plagiarize your work, or potentially hire someone to do it for you. Continue into the work force, focus…

Yeah, no doubt that's a huge part of why we have these interview-as-exam experiences in software development.

Still... the exams are harder than you'd need to simply weed out the fakers and cheaters. I can do various linked list and tree operations, set permutations, and so forth, and it's not like I've memorized it. I can apply these things. But the questions I've been asked in interviews... solving that, at the whiteboard, in less than an hour, all I can say is the companies are setting a much higher bar than merely ensuring that someone knows his or her stuff. That's fine, but let's make sure we don't pretend this is all about rooting out people who can't do fizz buzz. You can be pretty good at this stuff and still fail pretty badly at these interviews.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#263

Post by geebee »

abalashov wrote: post #251
michaelt wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this in every industry? Many professions have professional institutions which act as gatekeepers and audit the quality of university courses. For example, in the UK to become an architect you must become a member of the Royal Institute of British Architects, which requires a degree, a certain amount of postgraduate training, and a certain amount of experience working under an already-qualified architect. Needle…

And all those gatekeepers introduce significant economic inefficiencies while often failing to control adequately for quality. Part of the problem is that programming is far too diverse a field. The only common denominator that could be reasonably certified by a gatekeeper/professional guild would consist of theoretical grounding in software engineering and computing concepts that typically comes with a CS degree. Ye…

I don't see this as such a problem.

For instance, calculus, linear algebra, differential equations, numerical analysis, and so forth, are only a small part of what makes a good actuary. But they have a formal exam that you need to pass in these areas in order to be an actuary. They don't quiz new candidates with 10+ years experience on integration by parts during a job interview.

Because we lack even a basic exam in software development, we have to do data structures and algorithms over and over in interviews. I'd be more than OK with setting up a basic exam for what we can cover. I'd much rather take these exams with some assurances that it will be graded consistently and fairly, cover the proper material, and will lead to a lasting credential respected in industry. I wouldn't mind this even if it involved substantial effort and studying on my part, because I'd know what I was studying for and why.

Hey, maybe it means my next software job interview won't have to involve weeks of studying followed by 5+ hours solving tree traversal problems at a whiteboard.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#264

Post by josepi_ »

Student at UIC here:

Pretty much everyone in the lower level classes is cheating. Some of it's just "driving five-over" and some is practically murder. I've heard Chinese students talking throughout entire exams in big lecture halls, students leaving lab and immediately finding their friends waiting outside for the next lab section and dishing all the details of the day's lab, and students giving away a little too much information when talking about their strategy for a project.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#265

Post by shepardrtc »

crispyambulance wrote: post #207
kurtisc wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't understand the mindset of someone who would go to all these lengths just to be employed at something they don't understand at even the most basic level. Those same people skills could make them a lot of money in sales without all the grief.

OK, but real success in sales takes enormous talent, skills, and experience. There are many different job-roles out there and it is hard to find out what these roles even are. It takes time for people, especially freshly graduated students and career changers, to find their niche. At some point almost everyone gets themselves into situations where they're not competent and then realize they need to either make a swit…

Unless the employer has invested a large amount of money on a salary for someone who is not skilled in their supposed area of expertise. In my experience, developers tend to start their careers making more money than salespeople starting their careers.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#266

Post by dang »

OrthoMetaPara wrote: post #122

it's all dotheads and chinks

We've banned this account. If you don't want it to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and promise to follow the rules in the future.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#267

Post by douche »

marsRoverDev wrote: post #214
consp wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been an assistant on 1st to 3rd year bachelors courses in CS in the Netherlands (basic OOP, Software Architecture and Algorithmics like courses) and probably seen many of the types of copying and forgery. I can concur that most students don't really understand but just regurgitate what has been said even at Academic levels. On some Examples of what i've seen which sometimes leads to the types of interns you give…

RE the group assignments, my university quite successfully dealt with this by introducing a scaling factor based on peer assessments within the group. This scaling factor was strong enough to allow a group to fail one member if they received poor enough grades. Failing one member tends to boost your own grade as well, as the assumption is that you ended up having to pick up the slack. I did three group assessments, a…

> I did three group assessments, and out of those three failed two students with the help of my teammates, by co-ordinating our peer assessment. This peer assessment does not become public until grades come out, at which point they can be disputed. But 3 vs 1 usually comes out in favour of the group.

This is, inadvertently, fantastic training for sociopathic stack-ranked office politics.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#268

Post by abalashov »

geebee wrote: post #263
abalashov wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all those gatekeepers introduce significant economic inefficiencies while often failing to control adequately for quality. Part of the problem is that programming is far too diverse a field. The only common denominator that could be reasonably certified by a gatekeeper/professional guild would consist of theoretical grounding in software engineering and computing concepts that typically comes with a CS degree. Ye…

I don't see this as such a problem. For instance, calculus, linear algebra, differential equations, numerical analysis, and so forth, are only a small part of what makes a good actuary. But they have a formal exam that you need to pass in these areas in order to be an actuary. They don't quiz new candidates with 10+ years experience on integration by parts during a job interview. Because we lack even a basic exam in…

That's a very fair argument.

I still think there'd be far too much contention over just what is to be included in the corpus of essential knowledge. Everyone seems to agree that data structures, algorithms and systems fundamentals seem appealing, but just which ones depends greatly on whether you're doing embedded PLCs for fuel injectors or whether you're doing React.

I've been programming since I was 9, for most of that time in C. Yet I'd be very hard-pressed to tell you how exactly CPU instructions work, and have never touched anything "closer to the metal" than C. Should this disqualify me from the profession?

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#269

Post by barrkel »

b0rsuk wrote: post #216
conanbatt wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats fine, they are likely to receive the same benefits on the jobs as well. Who's to say its not a team building skill??

But that way they learn manipulating people instead of programming. The point of a programming assignment or exam is to force people understand programming. If you're hiring programmers you likely want "Masters Degree in IT" to mean "this person can code", not "this person can manipulate people". Good for them, not necessarily good for other people and the company in general. And in my experience romantic or erotic r…

learn manipulating people

This is called management, and it's well paid.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#270

Post by RugnirViking »

0xfeba wrote: post #231
flukus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fantastic was to end up with a code base 15 layers deep with each layer converting the properties of one object to properties on another object. It sure looks pretty in architecture diagrams though.

Sounds like the "n-tiered" .NET MVC code I work with that just has "n-tiers" over stored procedure calls.

Very familiar with me also, but with by far the largest tier being the javascript right at the front end
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