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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#261

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

jdietrich wrote: post #233
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Don't try to bullshit us. Your code is deliberately user-hostile. Farmers aren't trying to hack their tractors for the sake of it; they need to hack the parts of your code that prevent them from performing routine maintenance. Replacing a fuel pump is not going to turn a tractor into a rampaging death machine. You are using spurious safety arguments to justify profiteering. Software lock-outs are being used to prop u…

If product owners are given the ability, they will gladly retune the engine software to output more power, and defeat aftertreatment systems, both to the breaking of emissions laws, and the detriment to the environment. It's a tricky business trying to lock down only parts of the software. Once the cat is out of the bag, all bets are off, to mix my metaphors, so manufacturers err on the side of caution. It's not PURELY to screw the customer. ;-)

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#262

Post by thealfreds »

GTP wrote: post #209
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the JD's tractor software (if taken in it's entirety) is on par with the modern Linux kernel in size, if not larger. Worse yet, the codebase is spread along many different repositories, teams, and build systems. I've seen integration builds take days to finish (not including running of unit tests). Look I get it, John Deere is evil. But this codebase is beyond any one person or team's comprehension. It's…

How is possible that a software developed for a very specific purpose is comparable in size to a general purpose OS? I see this as an indication of a bad developed/vastly overcomplicated​ software. Correct me if you think otherwise.

I've worked at Deere as a contractor. Not on the tractor software as I didn't have access, but I would put most of what I saw as towing the line of over engineered.

There were certainly parts that were exceptionally easy to work with. Many, many, many repos all over the place doing various different things and inside of some of those you would find some very cleanly written code with excellent tests, examples, and documentation. The problem was once those nice little libraries, tools, etc got brought together it became a mess.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#263

Post by mwexler »

criddell wrote: post #255
keyme wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interoperability. At the very least this is a gray area.

This seems exactly like the type of situation for which the Librarian of Congress would carve out a DMCA exemption.

Perhaps better with the word "should" instead of "would"...

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#264

Post by gerbilly »

pdkl95 wrote: post #122
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

edit: I have hopefully fixed all of the places where I incorrectly parsed "worked on software for" as indicating employment. > They have a real potential to end peoples lives in the event of failure I hope the lessons[1] learned from the Therac-25 are part of the design. Anything that dangerous needs to have defense in depth. If there are hardware limiters, interlocks, etc adding redundancy to the software check, the…

> these tractors do (in testing) fail in spectacular ways.

Aren't there any hardware failsafes to prevent the software from controlling the machinery in an unsafe manner?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#265

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

If the software was open source, it would be modified and tuned to maximize power output, and would belch huge plumes of particulates, CO, and NOx. How do you balance openness against the public good of controlling this pollution? These are, perhaps, the primary reasons that engine control software is so complicated these days, on diesels and gas engines.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#266

Post by bigtimeidiot »

georgyo wrote: post #249
bigtimeidiot wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think I can pull the electric motor from my Model S to replace it? When John Deere does this, HN is up in arms. When Tesla does it, it's part of an "innovative business model".

I think if you had the part and replaced it, your car would turn on without a Tesla engineer recertifying it.

>your car would turn on without a Tesla engineer recertifying it

I think you're going to be disappointed.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#267

Post by DanBC »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #265
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

If the software was open source, it would be modified and tuned to maximize power output, and would belch huge plumes of particulates, CO, and NOx. How do you balance openness against the public good of controlling this pollution? These are, perhaps, the primary reasons that engine control software is so complicated these days, on diesels and gas engines.

Since the software is closed source we don't know if it's cheating emissions testing or not.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#268

Post by gerbilly »

jaclaz wrote: post #227

I have the feeling that somehow the actual need has been put aside for phylosophical (or Open Source, etc.) reasonings (nice but not the original issue). More or less what the good farmers are asking for (which is not about the code, the kernel or whatever, they are not "hackers" as much as the authorized JD technicians are not computer experts or programmers or software engineers) is just access to the "database" of…

>The farmers do not want the source code, they don't want to modify it, they don't want to "hack" anything, they simply want to be able to replace a part and have the thingy work.

One way to fix this would be for a farmer to sue the manufacturer for business interruption for millions of dollars.

When planting or harvesting, especially when bad weather is coming in, you are on a tight deadline.

Inability to replace a perfectly functional physical part due to this kind of software lockdown could cost a farmer lots of money.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#269

Post by bigtimeidiot »

tobltobs wrote: post #250
bigtimeidiot wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't try to bullshit us. Us ? Who is "us"? Why are you trying to shout down an opposing view? You want prefer the echo chamber? > Replacing a fuel pump is not going to turn a tractor into a rampaging death machine. Am I going to be able to replace whatever parts I want on my Model 3? Because "we" certainly love that company here!

Your comparison to Tesla doesn't get better just by repeating it a few times. If your Tesla breaks down you wont have any problem to get a comparable replacement car. Much luck to get a replacement for your tractor during harvest season.

>Your comparison to Tesla doesn't get better just by repeating it a few times

Your hand-waving also does precisely zero.

>If your Tesla breaks down you wont have any problem to get a comparable replacement car

What does this have to do with anything? I want to work on something I bought; isn't that what we're arguing about? The availability of a replacement is a straw man. Why are you apologizing for other companies that do precisely what is being described in the article?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#270

Post by bigtimeidiot »

callmeal wrote: post #252
bigtimeidiot wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't try to bullshit us. Us ? Who is "us"? Why are you trying to shout down an opposing view? You want prefer the echo chamber? > Replacing a fuel pump is not going to turn a tractor into a rampaging death machine. Am I going to be able to replace whatever parts I want on my Model 3? Because "we" certainly love that company here!

Yes - you can change the windshield wipers, replace the fluid, change the tires. You may not be able to replace the battery or any of the high voltage electrical system yet. Although if you are experienced in high-voltage maintenance, you may be able too. See this[1] description of one fix that your "software" would prevent. [1] http://imgur.com/gallery/j8Bcp

>Yes - you can change the windshield wipers, replace the fluid, change the tires.

Are you unable to change these components on your John Deere vehicle?

FTA:

""Maybe a gasket or something you can fix, but everything else is computer controlled and so if it breaks down I'm really in a bad spot,"

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