Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's no space in Elon's exciting master plans for this boring company..
Puns aside, it's fun to speculate how this fits in to SpaceX (will need lots of deep tunnels on Mars for habitation and protection from radiation) and Tesla (ventilating tunnels is much easier if the only cars using it are exhaustless). Or, he's just completely mad.
Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
261–270 of 278 posts
Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
You couldn't make efficient pods while complying with US railroad regulations (the US high speed trains are the heaviest in the world because the laws basically require trains to be armoured. Comparison to the US love of SUVs left as an exercise to the reader). If you can find a way around those regulations that would work, but seems overcomplicated compared to just applying your way around those regulations to ordin…
US railroad regulations don't apply to rail systems that don't carry freight and don't share rails with freight.
Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
#263I bet all Elon Musk admirers will start hating him because he is getting along with Trump.
At least Musk can say he tried.
Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I have stopped commenting on any tunnel related > Elon topic due to people refusing to believe my > experience and expertise when it does not align > with what Elon Musk and his team of "experts" > have said or published in their desk studies. I think you may be misreading the response here. When you write comments in a snarky way (as you did in the parent of this comment) it completely obscures your information to…
I used to post reasonable and non-snarky comments like this. I stopped doing it after about the fourth or fifth time that the commenters responding to my posts told me that I clearly had no idea what I was talking about and was uninformed because they had read the Hyperloop white paper. This literally only happens in Musk related threads. Your profile says you work in machine learning - imagine if every thread you po…
> This literally only happens in Musk related threads.
In my experience there are a number of people and companies that have advocates here. And they can be rather harsh when their world view is threatened. Many of my own most down voted comments are those that involve Google and its inability to make money on anything other than search advertising :-) I have also learned a lot from people who have been dismissive of my comments once I got them to help me understand where they were coming from. And that leads to this: > Your profile says you work in machine learning - imagine if every
> thread you posted in about machine learning you were told that
> you were an idiot because someone had read I, Robot and the AI
> in that doesn't match your idea of ML so of course you're wrong.
The reason that is in my profile is so that when someone is wondering about my comment, if they check my profile they can see where I am coming from. I also put my gmail address there so that folks can email me if they really disagree and they sometimes do. I also look at people's profiles to see if that can help contextualize their comments. When there is nothing in the 'about' field I have no way of knowing what their experience is. And I realize that many people don't put information in their profile because they wish to maintain a level of anonymity which might allow them to comment more freely than their employer (or acquaintances) would appreciate. But the bottom line is that asserting a counter argument from an anonymous account is much weaker than asserting a counter argument from a non-anonymous account. Counter arguments posted by throw away accounts that were created just to post the counter argument have the least weight of all.And that brings us to this:
> I would not be surprised if others in their respective fields take
> a similar approach in other cult of personality topics (Uber,
> Elon, Apple, etc.).
When you're writing a comment there are things you can include which will inflame the discussion emotionally. The rhetoric term I find most useful for this are 'dog whistles'. Dog whistles being ultrasonic whistles that when you blow on them dogs can hear them but most people can't. Similarly in communication you can use a phrase or keyword that relates back to a particular group of people.In your comment you call these "cult of personality topics" and that hits two interesting points. The first is that cults are, by and large, considered to be organizations which control their hapless members. The second is that personality is not a quantitative statement. "Fanboys", "Groupees", "Sycophants" are all negatively connotative words to describe someone who irrationally favors some topic or group.
The challenge though is that these people don't see themselves coming from that perspective, and they come by their admiration of founders or companies honestly. And it is important to recognize and acknowledge that someone can both admire Elon Musk's accomplishments and companies, without being "duped." And how you disagree can be just as important as what you disagree on.
So to wrap up, if you're comfortable with it, I recommend a bit of background/bio information in your profile to help people understand your expertise. When people comment with information you know to be incorrect, ask how they came to that understanding so that you can understand how to help them learn something new. And when people are dismissive of your expertise or your comments, help them learn by pointing them to the same sources and material you used to get to your understanding. Thanks to you I've got a copy of Dunn's "Fundamentals of Geotechnical Analysis" coming via inter-library loan. Until your comment I didn't have a name for the activity that analyzes the feasibility of tunneling projects, now I do. With that I can learn more.
Recognize that everyone here comes from a different background and have different levels of expertise. When someone disagrees with you or dismisses your comment take that as an opportunity to learn something new, not about about your area of expertise but about how to communicate it clearly to a non-expert.
Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
#265My laymen's understanding (from various documentaries & articles) is that the expensive part of tunnel construction is managing the transitions between different materials. Boring through hard rock might be slow, but hitting pockets of mud, loose rock and other things (especially when unexpected) can seriously mess up the works, and cause massive delays due to machine damage or reassessment and reinforcement/collapse…
If uncertainty is such a big problem, aren't there any technology solutions for it? Can radar be used to tell the density of materials along the whole boring route?
Sonar or other acoustic-type seismic sensing (drill holes, place microphone/transducer array, fire small explosive shot, and analyse shockwave propagation) is more practical, but still slow (needs a lot of boreholes), not amazingly high resolution, and probably disruptive to the neighbours if you're in an urban environment.
Thinking aloud here (and for all I know, it already happens), something like using oilwell-drilling tech to push a narrow horizontal bore along the tunnel path, and then sending a semi-autonomous sensor robot to do these sorts of scans at regular intervals might be better than drilling the inspection bores from the surface. There's still a bunch of issues if you drill into a pressurised water or mud pocket, but hopefully less than if your 10m-dia main cutter hits same.
Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
#266My laymen's understanding (from various documentaries & articles) is that the expensive part of tunnel construction is managing the transitions between different materials. Boring through hard rock might be slow, but hitting pockets of mud, loose rock and other things (especially when unexpected) can seriously mess up the works, and cause massive delays due to machine damage or reassessment and reinforcement/collapse…
> big TBMs are heavily bespoke systems specifically built for their planned route, and it's not unusual to just scrap them after the job is done. Would you say, they are expensive powerful machines built for a single use to be thrown away? Where much of the expense is due to the lack of re-usability? I wonder if Elon Musk has any experience with anything like that.
I recall a statement along the lines of 'we could reuse it, but if X, Y, or Z seriously fails in-situ, we'd spend at least as much as a new machine in trying to extricate and repair it. So we don't.'
No doubt bits of the machines are modular and can be salvaged and reused, but especially in urban tunneling, the initial bore access can be very tight, and machines are often assembled in-situ and could never be removed in one piece. That, and the sheer punishment they receive during operation makes an easy-to-dismantle design either more expensive or less performant.
Finally, my understanding is that the bulk of the cost (especially in overruns) has little to do with the TBM itself, but rather the delays incurred when the territory doesn't match the map.
So the solution would be to make a boring system capable of rapid reconfiguration to handle as many expected and unexpected regions as routinely as possible, rather than going for flat-out speed or ultimate machine reuse.
Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
#267Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
Often the TBM is just left behind in a spur tunnel after finishing the main excavation. It would be too expensive to disassemble and remove.
This is not correct. Most TBMs are advanced into a receiving pit or shaft, disassembled, and moved. Leaving tons of steel in the ground is not cost effective unless schedule is your main driver.
http://www.nysun.com/new-york/after-work-done-drills-likely-...
Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
> big TBMs are heavily bespoke systems specifically built for their planned route, and it's not unusual to just scrap them after the job is done. Would you say, they are expensive powerful machines built for a single use to be thrown away? Where much of the expense is due to the lack of re-usability? I wonder if Elon Musk has any experience with anything like that.
I'm sure there are various ways the work spaceX has done on reuse could apply, perhaps in reliability engineering the most. I recall a statement along the lines of 'we could reuse it, but if X, Y, or Z seriously fails in-situ, we'd spend at least as much as a new machine in trying to extricate and repair it. So we don't.' No doubt bits of the machines are modular and can be salvaged and reused, but especially in urba…
Over time generically flexible robots will tend to take up residence near the tip. Powerful motors probably stay there with a couple robots to bolt things in place and cycle through a supply of drill bits.
Eventually you can snip off a robust robot, and when it comes out the other end you can use it to seed a dig with a similar geological survey.
There's never a "product line" per se, just a fleet of tunneling robots with their own personalities.
Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but an interpolis version.
Interpolis is the worst place to start with your transportation networks. 1. We don't really have an interpolis transportation problem in most of the US. You jump on the interstate everything is fine. We've got freight rail, barges, and air freight. You only run into congestion when your poleis have grown together like between Boston and DC or around the Bay Area. 2. Your interpolis transportation networks are useles…