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Rust's 2017 Roadmap

blog.rust-lang.org

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Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#261

Post by flukus »

jamwt wrote: post #87
gcp wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure. I'm tempted to say I'm about as productive (in orders of magnitude) in any language that I'm very familiar with and has a large enough "batteries included" component (yes, crates would count, as does npm). Even C++ as long as the extras from boost are there. I can type reasonably correct code much faster than I can reason about how the program should work.

I'm not saying unproductive. I'm saying, we need to be realistic. Compared to, say, Python, it's nowhere close. Compared to C++, Java, or even Go, it's anywhere from competitive to significantly better.

You may be using a different definition of productive. I wouldn't consider python or any dynamic language productive on a large project.

Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#262

Post by girvo »

mamcx wrote: post #243
girvo wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like Delphi/Pascal, have you seen Nim?

Some year(s ?) ago I look at it. Seem nice. Don't clear if is good (enough) for mobile/UI. Need to recheck...

Check out this link for an example of how to build iOS apps with it: http://www.thomasdenney.co.uk/blog/2015/1/27/nim-on-ios/

Because it compiles directly to C, I've found it reasonably easy to bring into different environments myself, though I've not attempted iOS yet :)

Edited to add: Also check out https://github.com/yglukhov/nimx

Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#263

Post by steveklabnik »

cpeterso wrote: post #248
steveklabnik wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about the warts part? I'm not sure enough time has passed to tell what Rust's warts truly are. I always joke String should have been called StrBuf... I do this, yes. This is one of the reasons I hang out in IRC so often; it's an effective way to collect these kinds of things. More data is always better, and collecting it across multiple venues. I don't think IRC is inherently going to be a representative sampl…

Why not rename String to StrBuf everywhere with a String = StrBuf type alias for backwards compatibility, if this would clarify new users' understanding of String/str?

It's not clear that there's a ton of benefit, and not everyone agrees with me that StrBuf is a good name.

Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#264

Post by winstonewert »

dbaupp wrote: post #237
winstonewert wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would rust help in this situation? What alternate design is rust enabling that would be different?

Use an `enum` like Cow[1] that allows passing around static strings along with dynamic strings, as well as interior pointers: the compiler can check that things don't get invalidated and the enum makes it trivial to deallocate things correctly (in fact, it's all done automatically by the compiler), so a more aggressive design can be used, no need to defensively copy the strings. [1]: https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/bor…

Oh, wow, thanks. I finally understand what the purpose of Cow is!

Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#265

Post by Tanyasharma »

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Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#266

Post by Tanyasharma »

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Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#267

Post by tom_mellior »

jeffdavis wrote: post #250
tom_mellior wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rust's genius is going after the market that can't use GC But the problem with that is that the market that really really can't use GC is vanishingly tiny. Rust throws the baby out with the bathwater and tries to pressure others into thinking that they are in this market. Most developers on most projects aren't. And then Rust implements reference-counted pointers in the library, which is the slowest possible way of…

"But the problem with that is that the market that really really can't use GC is vanishingly tiny." Even if that's true (which I don't believe), tiny markets have a way of expanding when new offerings are available. New people are getting involved in OS development in rust, for instance. We might see some really interesting stuff happen there. The same thing may happen with databases and rust. And you didn't address…

This will be my last post in this subthread because I think most of my points have now been made several times...

> New people are getting involved in OS development in rust, for instance.

Tiny market. Expanding it to be slightly less tiny doesn't make it non-tiny. More importantly, positioning Rust as an operating systems programming language will not get people to use it for more general application programming.

> The same thing may happen with databases and rust.

Also a tiny market. Also, not sure how wrestling with the Rust compiler will advance database theory or practice. Even more importantly, the implication (in the context of the thread) that it's impossible to write a database system in a GC language is false. To optimize the implementation, you may probably want to avoid GC in the innermost hot parts. That would be possible with the hypothetical Rust-with-optional-GC I mentioned above.

> And you didn't address my example, which was all of those "-devel" packages you need to install to get all of those libraries that so much software depends on: libssl, libjpeg, etc.

I don't know what exactly you mean by that since you even need those packages for C programming, and you need them (or something equivalent to the headers they provide) for Rust, but yes, language interoperability is hard, and yes, some language runtimes make it harder than it should ideally be.

> And this has what ill effect?

Many people will read stuff about OS kernels and database systems and vaguely elitist but never concretized ramblings about "systems programming", coupled with "OMG, everything must always be super-fast at the expense of programmer productivity" and decide that they are not in this market. And then they will keep using Python. Or, just to rub it in, Go for "systems programming" like NTPsec. I never said that that's a bad thing; I just said that this will not drive more general Rust adoption.

Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#268

Post by william20111 »

gcp wrote: post #38
agmcleod wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive found Atom to be better in terms of having the lint as you go. RustyCode is pretty good though otherwise :). I'm interested to see where the debugging goes with it as well.

RUSTYCODE IS DEAD. I wish more people knew this, because it's probably the thing most people try to install as it has the most downloads. It's no longer maintained and doesn't work correctly with current stable. There's a fork that is being updated that's just called "Rust" in the VSCode addons.

thanks for that. I was using rusty code! Changed now :)

Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#269

Post by agmcleod »

gcp wrote: post #38
agmcleod wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive found Atom to be better in terms of having the lint as you go. RustyCode is pretty good though otherwise :). I'm interested to see where the debugging goes with it as well.

RUSTYCODE IS DEAD. I wish more people knew this, because it's probably the thing most people try to install as it has the most downloads. It's no longer maintained and doesn't work correctly with current stable. There's a fork that is being updated that's just called "Rust" in the VSCode addons.

Thanks for letting me know :)

Re: Rust's 2017 Roadmap

#270

Post by hyperpape »

stable-point wrote: post #251
hyperpape wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mutability makes it worse, but there are at least some issues with borrowing that have nothing to do with mutability. If your experience is with garbage collected languages, I suspect you'll encounter errors that surprise you.

Could you provide an example where the borrowing would cause issues for immutable data? I'm still learning Rust, but I thought the fact that you could have as many immutable borrows as possible would limit what errors the borrow checker could throw at you.

This is embarrassing, but I'm now second-guessing whether what I wrote was accurate. Sorry.

In penance, here are some links: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/5ny09j/tips_to_not_fi... https://m-decoster.github.io//2017/01/16/fighting-borrowchk/

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