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U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#261

Post by in_cahoots »

When I started my first job, I was shocked at the amount of racial self-selection there was. Although the company itself was diverse, many teams were 80%+ white/Chinese/Indian. If you looked closer you saw that they had all gone to the same schools (albeit in different years or even decades) or had worked together previously.

This wasn't a top-tier company, so my theory was that candidates with options went elsewhere, while those without options stayed here and hired people like themselves. I could easily see the same thing happening at a place like Oracle.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#262

Post by AnthonyMouse »

Frondo wrote: post #243
ninkendo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. That is a drastic oversimplification. The employee pool can only hope to be reflective of the pool of those who seek employment at that company and are qualified. Which can only hope to be reflective of the employee marketplace for that industry at large. Whi…

You're right, the problem is bigger than a company. It goes deep, society-deep. And I don't think anyone would say "poor black kids have a fair shake, right up until Oracle doesn't hire them". Of course not. Some groups get shafted from birth, by being born into poor communities, by being born into communities where the police split their heads for looking the way they do. You're right, it's not just on some tech com…

> What I don't get is why people are always so goddamn defensive of companies and their hiring practices. "The problem lies elsewhere, don't blame the company!!"

Because the problem actually does lie elsewhere. Being a corporation is not evidence of guilt.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#263

Post by kyrra »

freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

The Google one is interesting. Page 4 points 9a-c outline what the DOL wants. Point C says they want names and contact information for Google employees.

https://www.dol.gov/sites/default/files/newsroom/newsrelease...

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#264

Post by ausjke »

I now sue NBA for having too few whites and Asians.

The goal is to make sure everywhere people are distributed on their population and color and gender and age ratio, instead of merits, after this micro-level-equality is accomplished everywhere, let's then work on making sure everyone has their fair share of fortune, finally, communism will be realized and the world will be a peaceful place, starting from US!

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#265

Post by azernik »

freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

Oracle was sued for hiring too many Indians, and for paying not-(white and male) employees less than white male employees of the same job title, seniority, and experience.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#266

Post by omginternets »

frozenport wrote: post #218
Frondo wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…

Asians are 6% of the population, should big companies like Google start firing people? Palantir got sued for hiring Asians at a ratio of 20%. 4 out of 21 were Asians, this was too low given the size of the applicant pool.

> 4 out of 21 were Asians, this was too low given the size of the applicant pool.

What if they were actually the better candidates?

Bias in hiring may well reflect bias in talent.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#267

Post by moduspol »

Frondo wrote: post #243
ninkendo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. That is a drastic oversimplification. The employee pool can only hope to be reflective of the pool of those who seek employment at that company and are qualified. Which can only hope to be reflective of the employee marketplace for that industry at large. Whi…

You're right, the problem is bigger than a company. It goes deep, society-deep. And I don't think anyone would say "poor black kids have a fair shake, right up until Oracle doesn't hire them". Of course not. Some groups get shafted from birth, by being born into poor communities, by being born into communities where the police split their heads for looking the way they do. You're right, it's not just on some tech com…

> What I don't get is why people are always so goddamn defensive of companies and their hiring practices. "The problem lies elsewhere, don't blame the company!!"

It's because we've been in roles in companies like these, dealt with diversity and hiring policies that seemed ineffective, counter-intuitive, and bureaucratic, yet there still always seems to be this cloud over us that assumes we're all secretly just racist.

It feels like we already bend over backwards to try to hire diverse candidates and comply with policies that suggest / require that. I'm sure Google, Oracle, and Palantir certainly have them. Yet these lawsuits have these big bold headlines basically implying the companies' policies are racist based on (if you think other factors are much bigger causes) unreasonable assessments. When we see it happen to them, we know it can happen to us, and it's easy to get defensive.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#268

Post by jdavis703 »

ninkendo wrote: post #219
Frondo wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what, though? If we actually had equality of opportunity, it doesn't seem like we'd see the kind of disparity we do. Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. But then, when I listen to the stories women in tech (for example) tell, and they do tell a LOT of the same stories, it's clear we're p…

> Certainly not at a big corporation where there should be enough of an employee pool to have it at least somewhat reflect the general population of the region. That is a drastic oversimplification. The employee pool can only hope to be reflective of the pool of those who seek employment at that company and are qualified. Which can only hope to be reflective of the employee marketplace for that industry at large. Whi…

Since graduating college I've stayed continuously employeed at several different Bay Area tech startups, so I'm pretty sure I have at least decent technology skills. Yet I've been to several interviews where questions about race/ethnicity were brought up (and I failed to get offers from those companies that ask such questions). I can only imagine what it's like being a woman going for these positions. My point, a lot of the filters these companies put up are totally artificial.

I even had a chance to ask a well known SV entrepreneur/investor about what VCs look for, and he said one of the things is "people who look like him." I appreciated his honesty, but it certainly seems like there is a lot of talent that is ignored because people and companies are using poor hueristics.

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#269

Post by omginternets »

logandavis wrote: post #207
wallace_f wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…

1) Don't you believe that equality of opportunity would lead to equality of outcome (plus or minus random variation)? If not, what alternative result would you predict would arise from equality of opportunity, and why? 2) Don't you see how taking steps to correct towards equality of outcome leads towards equality of opportunity (by increasing the networking / financial / inspiration opportunities for disadvantaged gr…

>Don't you believe that equality of opportunity would lead to equality of outcome (plus or minus random variation)?

Why should it? This reflects a very strong a priori position that people are exactly the same and don't systematically vary in their interests, cultural values, etc.

Where's the positive evidence for this (latent, implicit) positive claim?

Re: U.S. sues Oracle, alleges salary and hiring discrimination

#270

Post by hogrammer »

wallace_f wrote: post #167
freditup wrote: post #123

That means we so far have: * Palantir sued for not hiring enough Asians [0] * Google sued for not turning over compensation data [1] * Oracle sued for hiring too many Asians While it's possible that discriminatory processes have happened at all these places, it seems these lawsuits can be targeted at whoever one wishes. It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire…

>It's always going to be possible to find data that indicates discrimination, unless companies hire in exact quotas (which would also be discriminatory really). There already are off-the-record quotas. Who in management hasn't heard discussion at least eluding the the need for a diversity hire? Probably very few people at this point. I believe a distinction must be made: Equality of opportunity is good. Equality of o…

The opposite of "quality" is "equality."
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