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The Real Name Fallacy

blog.coralproject.net

261–270 of 323 posts

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#261
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is ESR?

Eric S Raymond, author of some important and influential software related books (Cathedral and Bazaar, for example), but also a mysogynistic, homophobic, conspiracy theorist It's hard to pick one example because there are so many, but read what he says about the Catholic abuse scandal: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=26 There are so many errors scattered through that piece that there's no point rebutting them. It's best to…

> It's best to just flag anything (not related to computing) about ESR.

That doesn't mean that he's incapable of making a coherent or interesting argument. Don't flag just because you expect to be offended, as the flag mechanism prevents others from being exposed to content that they may be interested in, if even just to sharpen their sword for use on someone trying to put what you see as harmful/dangerous thoughts into actions.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#262
post #187

If you're claiming that women, in general, today on the internet face worse than death threats, you're going to need to provide proof for that. And anecdotal evidence is not going to cut it, most people with an online presence get their fair share of death threats at some point.

Please don't do things that amount to trolling on HN.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13319761 and marked it off-topic.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#263
post #157
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit definitely suffers from the free speech and social acceptableness clash. That's in part because the site was founded specifically on the assumption that it would allow freedom of speech, without realising that 'true' freedom of speech is basically 'anything goes if it's legal, social norms and rules be damned'. It's why they're struggling with communities like The Donald and had a lot of previous issues with t…

Reddit suffers because people in general do not believe freedom of speech is a right. I disliked the Fat People Hate subreddit, you know what I did... I did not visit the Fat People Hate subreddit. The communities I join and participate in on Reddit are moderated well and do not suffer from the problem, if you do not like what is talked about on The Donald, don't go there, not that hard. The problem is people do go,…

That whole "don't go to that section if you don't like it" works just fine if those things stay in their section. The problem is that they weren't staying in their section. Fat People Hate was known for going into other subreddits and shitposting all the time. The Donald famously abused the rules to get their crap spamming /r/all constantly.

So tell me again how "don't go to those subreddits" is the solution?

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#264
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thank you for your explanation, but I still don't get it. How was I forcing an argument in any shape or form? I merely asked for clarification on a _very_ extreme claim, which I got shortly afterwards, in the form that the claim was meant differently. That would have been the end of the matter for me. But apparently I'm obnoxious? Well, than so be it.

If you don't submit and lay prostrate before the initial claim, you are guilty. Asking questions is forbidden. Clarification is forbidden. Always pretend to understand instead of engaging in analysis. Welcome to the mindset of the people who want to control the Internet.

Alternately, a lot of us are tired of having the same discussions over and over again, with people who don't seem to be discussing in good faith.

I, for one, approach every discussion online with cautious open-mindedness. My time is limited. It doesn't take much for me to want to direct my energies elsewhere.

You can call it virtue-signalling, you can say that asking questions is forbidden, I can say that I'm under no obligation to talk to you or anyone.

And I've learned, through my own experience, that there's a familiar form of discussion that I am not interested in having; the person I responded to hit that form and showed me my energy is better spent elsewhere.

You can talk to them all you want. It's a big internet. I don't have to, and I won't.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#265
post #39

The real name discussion is as old as the Usenet, maybe even older. I find it strange to see it re-appearing again and again every few years for almost decades. Back then, the consensus was roughly: 1. If a community accepts pseudonyms, it is polite to use either your realname or an obvious pseudonym. 2. If a community places high value on realnames, either use your realname or a realname-sounding (i.e. non-obvious)…

Yes. People using real names on Usenet did not usually face a serious risk of being harassed and endangered in real life by an army of trolls: E.g. having their address, phone number and other private details stolen and publicly disseminated. Having armed police raid their house because someone has made a bogus 911 call. Having their utilities and back accounts cancelled because someone rang up using their details. H…

> Having armed police raid their house because someone has made a bogus 911 call.

This seems to be mostly an american problem, not an online problem. Which means maybe it's not something that should be fixed by online communities but by the nation.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#266
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't submit and lay prostrate before the initial claim, you are guilty. Asking questions is forbidden. Clarification is forbidden. Always pretend to understand instead of engaging in analysis. Welcome to the mindset of the people who want to control the Internet.

Alternately, a lot of us are tired of having the same discussions over and over again, with people who don't seem to be discussing in good faith. I, for one, approach every discussion online with cautious open-mindedness. My time is limited. It doesn't take much for me to want to direct my energies elsewhere. You can call it virtue-signalling, you can say that asking questions is forbidden, I can say that I'm under n…

An almost acceptable pivot, if it wasn't for the sealioning accusation in the parent.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#267
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternately, a lot of us are tired of having the same discussions over and over again, with people who don't seem to be discussing in good faith. I, for one, approach every discussion online with cautious open-mindedness. My time is limited. It doesn't take much for me to want to direct my energies elsewhere. You can call it virtue-signalling, you can say that asking questions is forbidden, I can say that I'm under n…

An almost acceptable pivot, if it wasn't for the sealioning accusation in the parent.

I stand by the sealioning accusation. I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I think the poster was sealioning, and I'm not going to engage with someone beyond that.

You want to? Go for it. I am not, nor is anyone else, obligated to.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#268
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit suffers because people in general do not believe freedom of speech is a right. I disliked the Fat People Hate subreddit, you know what I did... I did not visit the Fat People Hate subreddit. The communities I join and participate in on Reddit are moderated well and do not suffer from the problem, if you do not like what is talked about on The Donald, don't go there, not that hard. The problem is people do go,…

That's all well and good when it was subs like FPH that were easily ignored. The thing that threatened to chase me off of reddit was the_donald. Not because I was "offended"(the new code word for calling someone a pussy), but because it was shitty content that pissed me off. And they figured out how to jack the algorithm to make their sub the most prominent content. I joined reddit for the science and tech, not to be…

Only if you are using /r/all, and if you using that to find good content you are using reddit wrong.

/r/all has always been and will always be trash.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#269
post #263
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit suffers because people in general do not believe freedom of speech is a right. I disliked the Fat People Hate subreddit, you know what I did... I did not visit the Fat People Hate subreddit. The communities I join and participate in on Reddit are moderated well and do not suffer from the problem, if you do not like what is talked about on The Donald, don't go there, not that hard. The problem is people do go,…

That whole "don't go to that section if you don't like it" works just fine if those things stay in their section. The problem is that they weren't staying in their section. Fat People Hate was known for going into other subreddits and shitposting all the time. The Donald famously abused the rules to get their crap spamming /r/all constantly. So tell me again how "don't go to those subreddits" is the solution?

>>So tell me again how "don't go to those subreddits" is the solution?

OK, Dont go to those subreddits.

>Fat People Hate was known for going into other subreddits and shitposting all the time.

I was no aware that subreddit's could post anything. Now users that happened to subscribed or vist FPH may also visit other communities, it is up to those communities to then moderator their subreddits,

As to /r/all, reddit should just really remove that "feature" /r/all has never worked, and will never work, that is a non-issue.

Re: The Real Name Fallacy

#270
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Classic. "I'm not at risk, so we need not change anything. Your behavior is therefore at fault." I'm sure you meant to say "Classic strawman:" because that's not at all what I said, or meant. Please actually respond to what I said and not whatever argument you heard other people make. I think it's demonstrably true that if using Facebook is an acute risk to your life, you are better off not using. That doesn't mean…

Call the police. Call the police ? You don't have enough proof, and shouting death threats at people isn't "harassment" anyway, it's just "free speech", so just grow a thicker skin already, and stop encouraging the death threats to be sent to you by being out in public like that! You have a right not to be killed and you have a right to wash your clothes but you don't have a right to wash your clothes in that specifi…

I'd say that everybody has a natural right to not fear malicious harm while engaging in any form of everyday commerce or public discourse.

In situations like the hypotheticals described, I would also say that the local authorities have lost their mandate to govern, and that those subject to the adverse conditions are ethically justified in securing their own safety by any means at their disposal, including against those (former) local authorities, if necessary, while still engaging in everyday commerce and public discourse. Making everyone stay home to stay safe is not an acceptable option. Living your life is more than just avoiding an untimely death.

You do have the right to do business at a laundromat without the threat of being killed, but it is not the owner of the laundromat that has the ultimate duty to provide the illusion of physical security there. If a state exists, it is the state's duty to make you feel safe anywhere in public, provided that you do not yourself act unlawfully.

No government upholds that duty perfectly, however, so a certain measure of responsibility for one's personal safety will always fall upon the individual. And in order to safeguard the benefits of trade, a certain measure will always fall upon the business owner who wishes to keep their customers (and unpurchased property).

Facebook has chosen, perhaps wrongly, to implement its policies such that it is easier (and cheaper) to hold misbehaving individuals accountable after the fact than to protect innocents from misbehavior before it happens. This is a business decision, and it reveals by its failures that state authorities are not effectively investigating and prosecuting criminal harassment to the extent necessary to make people feel safe, and in the worst cases, it is the state authorities themselves that are harassing identifiable individuals.

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