Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#261

Post by btdiehr » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 3:41 PM UTC

sulam wrote: post #108

gambler wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The oncall routines were terrible, though, I agree. Luckily I was in a strange situation and was able to avoid them. I would think that Amazon of all places would automate anything they could.

No incentive at best, disincentive usually. There is a steady stream of new grads willing to put up with it for a couple years. The horrible vesting means you aren't paying much for them, not to mention salaries are mildly low to start with. I have repeatedly heard these stories about Amazon -- it is one of the known-bad places to work, unless you have found a truly special situation. Keep in mind this is only compar…

> if you're not privileged enough to be a software developer.

Being a software developer isn't a privilege, it's a choice.

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#262

Post by notyourwork » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 3:42 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #173

Bahamut wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are significantly more of these stories out there on Amazon than the other major tech companies it seems - I haven't heard of anywhere near as many stories coming from Google, Facebook, or Apple.

Negative stories that make it into the press are rare events and therefore it's difficult to compare if there is much more dissatisfaction in one company vs another. A better indicator is turnover rate.

Completely agree, I have only heard of a few stories so I don't think we can conclude about one company over another. Turnover rate does sound like a much better general indicator.

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#263

Post by notyourwork » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

allengeorge wrote: post #190

notyourwork wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that the most vocal are the most dissatisfied. Also remember that at a company that large there are going to be more dissatisfied than smaller companies. Lastly, don't forget that no one wants to read a story about an upset engineer from a small no name company. People like seeing big brand names fail and we as a society are a sucker for a negative drama. They retain people because not every team is like wha…

The volume of stories coming out of Amazon far outstrips those from Google or Facebook for example.

"Far outstrips" feels like an exaggeration of the problem considering the publics lack of data.

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#264

Post by rdtsc » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 3:46 PM UTC

amazon_employee wrote: post #42

rdtsc wrote: post #22

I was interviewing for AWS, and it was a circus. Completely disorganized. However, I have to say, I enjoyed the parroting back of "the leadership principles" part. It was like being in the Soviet Union again and singing praises to the great party leaders. Very much worth wasting a day over it. However my nephew didn't have such a fun time. He was working for one of their warehouses in Kentucky and they were ruthless…

Sorry to hear that. I work for AWS, and I like to think we're pretty organized. I'm not sure what part of your experience was "unorganized". You probably caught the team on a busy day or something. LPs are just guidelines for what the company "wants" out of its employees. They're used heavily in hiring to weed out small thinkers and bad culture fits, and a bit in performance reviews. Outside of that, nobody really ca…

> I'm not sure what part of your experience was "unorganized".

Ok let's see, we'll need a bullet point list for it:

* Agreed on a time for the phone interview. They didn't call. Sat around waiting for an hour like an idiot without anyone even sending an email / text / or calling to apologize. Ok, that's fine stuff happens, understand. No bid deal...

* Scheduled on-site interview. Show up. Manager, the main person who was supposed to interview me, wasn't there. I thought ok, this is getting ridiculous. But fine, big company, yadda yadda.

* People who interviewed me didn't seem at all interested in my previous projects or my experience. I suspect they never actually read my resume before the interview. Asking ridiculous questions like "tell me about your biggest failure..."

* Lunchtime comes. I thought, well at least I'll get to meet some of the team members maybe others are a bit more friendly. So I sit there and wait,... and... nothing. They apparently forgot. After about 30 minutes I started wondering around the hallways hoping someone would stop me and wonder if I was lost. Maybe I would have asked them how they liked working there and such. Nobody even apologized for it either.

* Recruiter before the interview swore they'd get back to me in 3 days, as I already had a few offers on hand. It took them 3 weeks! I decided not to remind them just to see how long they'll take.

I don't know if I'd call that just a "busy day". Seems like a systemic problem to me...

> Judging corporate based on fulfillment center working conditions isn't fair. One is a $15k job, and the other is a $115k job

Yes it is. How a company treats all of its employees tells something about the company. How it treats manager, and top brass, CEOs, developers, down to janitors. All of that says a lot about a company.

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#265

Post by IndianAstronaut » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

mcherm wrote: post #201

IndianAstronaut wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like Capital One as well, which is mirroring Amazon's culture as well as stack ranking system.

Perhaps you have experience in a different part of Capital One than I do. While the annual assessment process does bear some resemblance to stack ranking (and to be clear, I think this assessment process is one of Capital One's flaws and it would be better if it were changed), the rest of the description of Amazon's culture does not sound like what I see working here at Capital One. I see a company that, 5 years ago,…

I have heard of other teams like that and I am jealous. But there are some managers stuck in the past and an old way of thinking. Those that think it is acceptable to play the stack ranking politics, bully underlings, micromanage, etc. I do hope things change soon.

>deliver or die

Oddly enough, I was told this very recently. Deliver right away or bear the consequences.

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#266

Post by selectiveshift » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 3:53 PM UTC

ex_amazon_sde wrote: post #177

notyourwork wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that the most vocal are the most dissatisfied. Also remember that at a company that large there are going to be more dissatisfied than smaller companies. Lastly, don't forget that no one wants to read a story about an upset engineer from a small no name company. People like seeing big brand names fail and we as a society are a sucker for a negative drama. They retain people because not every team is like wha…

Your post sounds strangely onesided. Amazon turnover rate for engineers is the highest across the usual names. 50% of engineers leave before 2y.

As does yours. Any data to back up that number, or just anecdotal evidence?

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#267

Post by steve-howard » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 3:53 PM UTC

gohrt wrote: post #111

sssilver wrote: post #49

Following some of the discussion on this thread, I am constantly reminded of a priceless advice I got from a senior friend years ago. When thinking about an employer, above a certain size threshold, never judge a company. Always judge a department. You don't work for a company. You work for a department. Above a certain (fairly small) size, the only thing you'll share with the employees in the other departments will…

A bad team at a good company -- quite possible. A good team at a bad company -- unlikely.

Good teams can form within bad organizations, but it's a vulnerable position to be in as an employee. One reorg and suddenly it's all bad.

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#268

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #232

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does suicide have anything to do with safe spaces and trigger warnings? Did suicide not exist before college started incorporating safe spaces and trigger warnings? If there is a causation relationship between safe spaces/trigger warnings and suicide does this also mean that countries with high suicide rates have a lot of safe spaces/trigger warnings? What about the high suicide rate of teenagers? Trans people? H…

With you (no data available yet) until that last statement. Are 'safe spaces' etc related to relieving trauma (no data available yet)? And yes colleges are responsible for making students resilient. That's the 'job training' part. Many have courses in professional ethics, in responsible management, in meeting deadlines with quality work. These are not incidental to the education mandate, they are central.

Specifically, I am asking about how safe spaces or trigger warnings in college are at all relevant to the occurrence of suicide outside of a college setting.

I do apologize for my final note, as I realize it is off topic and I would rather not enter tangential discussion. I've edited it out. If you would like to continue talking, let me know if there is another way to talk (email, etc.)

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#269

Post by hiddencost » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #212

Amazon-bashing aside, this is an example of why 'safe spaces' and 'trigger-free zones' may be a bad idea. Colleges should train students in responding to triggers; exercise their self-control regularly in the face of adversity not stunt it. Somebody jumps instead of walking away, they have priorities drastically miswired.

What? You really have no idea how epistemology works, do you? Just reading David Brooks make unsourced claims with third hand knowledge and thinking about what he said like it's true is no basis for an analysis, especially an easily studied one like this.

First off, you'd need to demonstrate an effect that focused on that age group. But suicide rates are going up much more quickly for the middle aged and the poor. [0] Second, you clearly have no idea what "safe spaces" are. They're not "every part of life", they're specific meeting places in the community and focus on problems that have to be grappled with constantly, everywhere else. People who have access to safe spaces are consistently living with unsafe spaces; providing a small space of momentary refuge isn't coddling.

[0] https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/hea...

Re: Amazon Worker Jumps Off Company Building After E-Mail to Staff

#270

Post by selectiveshift » Tue, Nov 29, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #75

vonklaus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this. Amazon seems to have seriously cutting edge infrastructure; they sell it as a service and operate more servers than google. Also, according to the article 20k people work for them, although I am not sure if that was total or engineers. I am curious how they can retain people to manage all of their operations. Those terms sound terrible and not competitive. I would take those terms, but I am d…

> I don't understand this. Amazon seems to have seriously cutting edge infrastructure; I think it depends on what part of Amazon you're working for. From what I understand, Amazon.com is not run on AWS.

Almost all of Amazon.com has been migrated to AWS.