U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#261

Post by saiya-jin » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

skwosh wrote: post #133

acchow wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really don't need to pay tuition to gain a rich education in art and humanities and sciences if you want one. There are resources aplenty - buy a book! I'd even go so far as to say the majority of college grads learned almost nothing during college, and the few who did would, after a few years of maturity, pick up a book of their own free will and enrich themselves. I think the costs of university (huge amounts o…

You could say that about anything though, and I'm sure many in engineering do (about everything from design patterns to category theory...). The value added by quality in-person tuition shouldn't be underrated though, not to mention access to equipment, studios, and like minds... Working and communicating in person is a hugely effective catalyst for productivity, creative evolution, etc. Artistic and scientific devel…

Parent has a good point - there are very few specializations which cannot be learned with dedication and internet connection. Human interaction/team efforts for example are important, but in almost all cases you are under-trained coming from uni to real world and soon you'll pick it up in real life.

There are bad/mediocre universities/colleges, which don't give you almost nothing on top of what is currently available in few clicks. Most people out there graduate on those. I know, since I am one of them. All useful stuff I know now I learned on my own, either during studies (a bit) or working (most of it).

The only good reason why I don't regret university is campus life - but if you don't have a need for party-style episode in your life and human interaction in that style, then universities/colleges are not the best place to spend 5 of your most creative years. Unless also hunting for future contacts in elite places, but that's another topic.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#262

Post by nice1 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:31 PM UTC

shmerl wrote: post #74

School-Cotton wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can it? What's your plan for implementing this?

Same as other countries which do it. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland

Also Germany, many others in fact.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#263

Post by ap22213 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:33 PM UTC

Lazare wrote: post #225

JulianMorrison wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

That sounds like a very nice world to live in. It also doesn't sound much like our world. It's certainly not how any country on Earth operates. One day, I hope and imagine, we will live in a post-scarcity world, and then yes, that sounds like a great plan for organizing society. > rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now. Perhaps we should wait to relax that focus once we've actually solved th…

It is extremely unlikely that a post-scarcity world will ever occur without, say, a collective global work project. There is no financial incentive for private capital to initiate it. Just like the Internet (in its current form) would have never occurred without government funding.

The technology to bring about a post-scarcity world mostly exists, and we could get there very quickly (maybe 5-10 years). But, how do you convince the upper classes (who control the capital) to support it? How do you temper the common idea that 'the lazy people' will just do nothing all day? (like that's a bad thing)

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#264

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:36 PM UTC

skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#265

Post by saiya-jin » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:42 PM UTC

marklyon wrote: post #16

toomanybeersies wrote: post #6

Every time I read articles about student loans in the USA, the options are always presented as either the current state, or free tuition. Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option? Here in New Zealand, our student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand. It means that people who don't do tertiary education, or who do a trade, don't subsidise…

Even just reducing the interest rate can have a significant impact. I cut my rate from just over 7% to 4.71% and slightly increased my payment, moving my final payment from July 2, 2038 to December 1, 2025 (ignoring any additional payments I make) [1]. Just doing that made attacking my massive loan balance much more manageable. I don't expect (or want, actually) for my education to be free. I knew I was racking up de…

well, glad I had it for free, there are tons of other financial burdens in life rather than paying education in IT which was nearly obsolete even during studying (i think unis nowadays catched up a bit with current state).

imagine that - graduating and having 0 debt, and not ruining parents in the same time. it's called freedom. but if you feel that you don't want this kind of freedom and perform better under long term pressure, then enjoy your current state.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#266

Post by rahimnathwani » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:44 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #185

rahimnathwani wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option?" Imagine what would happen if the US government made student loans interest free. Who would gain, and who would lose? (1) Students could afford to take out larger loans (as the repayments would be more affordable with 0% interest vs. 4.66% interest) (2) As a result of (1) colleges could charge higher tuition fees, without reducing the number of students…

1 and 2 would happen but 3 would necessitate a decision to consciously subsidize the banks since it can just issue treasury bills itself at a much lower interest rate.

You're forgetting about the other major costs: default risk and loan servicing. Sure, the government might save an amount equal to banks' net profits on student loans, but that could be outweighed by the servicing costs, as the government would need to build a loan servicing operation (and build or install associated software) from scratch.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#267

Post by mark_l_watson » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:45 PM UTC

Is this news? The global elites harvest young people for profit just as they do older people with subprime mortgages, etc. Sorry for sounding cynical, but that is just the way I think the world works.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#268

Post by rahimnathwani » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:48 PM UTC

jcbrand wrote: post #167

rahimnathwani wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, then what would cause a huge uptick in default rates?

People's inability to service/pay their loans, due to not having enough income, due to the job market collapsing, due to a recession (which is already overdue).

What you've described here is the value of an asset (student loan paper) declining due to a change in the underlying cash flows generated by that asset.

This is how asset prices are supposed to work. It's not the busting of a bubble.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#269

Post by zaroth » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:51 PM UTC

awinder wrote: post #254

shaftoe wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds great, but there's no free lunch and when you ask people to pay (a lot) for something, you're going to get their opinion. Here's mine. I roughly divide human activities into jobs and hobbies. One ultimately builds enough value to support existence, one is primarily done for enjoyment. Education for the former can and should pay for itself over the long haul, so we're discussing who pays for hobby educatio…

I'm sorry but, insinuating that humanities and arts are "hobby educations" is pretty rude and smacks of superiority complex. Look at the achievements that have stood the test of time and become valuable to us as a species. It's a pretty beautiful blending of scientific achievement and artistic achievement. If this system can't encourage both, let's not go to war with the arts, let's make the system that we invented,…

Don't apologize for personal attacks, just refrain from them.

Any argument made by starting with calling someone rude or accusing them of having a superiority complex, can only be made better by instead empathizing with rather than dismissing opposing viewpoints.

What's even worse is patronizing a mis-characterization of someone's statement.

> I roughly divide human activities into jobs and hobbies.

This indeed is a rough characterization of life. At no point does shaftoe insinuate humanities and arts are 'hobby educations'. Rather it seems to me a simply capitalistic view that anything humans do well can be done for money, at which point we call it a job. Certainly that also includes artists and philosophers. Or another way to think about it, to be truly great at something you must spend the majority of your life doing it, at which point it probably also needs to pay the bills.

People should only be investing 5-figure sums of taxpayer's dollars to learn what they expect will be lifelong skills that will significantly increase their lifetime earning potential. In almost all cases, this is not Art History class.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#270

Post by nickik » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #87

jerf wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could also make college a lot cheaper. Maybe split things back out into "college" and "university" more clearly, and let more people do something other than ship out to a four (or more) year boarding school to have someone more or less through classes that are more or less someone holding your hand through reading a text book that you may neither want nor need to read. (Yes, the exceptions immediately leap to your…

I have a 7 week old and a 22 month old and am convinced that - outside of certain fields - college will be entirely optional to them. Even now, there are many things that can/should be learned through apprenticeship or online or via other means and that is only going to increase in the next 15+ years. Please note: I said "college" not education. I believe education will always be vital, no matter what. A piece of pap…

You should study the swiss system. Here everybody goes to school for a minimum of 9 years. Then you have a split into two major groups, those that go on 3 more years of school and then go to university. The other group are doing a apprenticeship/school combo where the school teaches you about the job and some more general stuff. The apprenticeship take 3-4 years depending on the profession, IT, for example, is a 4 year program.

Now the cool thing about this is that if your are motivated to do a little extra you can go for some additional school and that will get you almost the same degree as those that go to school for the full 12 years. This essentially allows you to go into higher education and get your bachelor, sometimes even master.

This has the major benefit at people at the university quite often already have 4 years of job experience. This gives them much more perspective on the theory that you learn. Plus you already earn a little money.

If you don't have the means to go to university full time you can do it part time where your job can actually give you additional credits.

The fascinating thing now is that in Germany about 80% of the kids get a mature (takes 12 years in Switzerland) while in Switzerland its only like 20-30%. So only the people who actually want to university do this. Everybody else jumps into some professional fields right away.

The negative side is that 15 year olds have to pick their jobs, you are usually working by 16/17. Many pick the wrong thing, but fortunately there is a pretty good system in place where you can do something else on faster timeline. They have invested a lot in making the system dynamic, there are all different side paths where you can jump into the other tracks.