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Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

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Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#261

Post by saint_fiasco »

M_Grey wrote: post #148
mason240 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Project Include has the right to choose who they associate with. As does anyone else who blacklists.

That's just nonsensical, and you've defined anything with membership as a "blacklist". What makes a blacklist a blacklist, is the list of "undesirables"; you don't just get to point to any body with membership and define all non-members as "blacklisted".

Can't the list in a blacklist be defined by intension (like the set of people who support Trump), or does it have to be by extension (like the set of people whose name is on a literal list)?

Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#262

Post by masklinn »

amyjess wrote: post #229
noobermin wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, pg does seem quite against Trump personally, at least on twitter he doesn't quite shut up about it. For him to accept Thiel while greatly disliking Trump doesn't really give me the sense that he doesn't care either way. Instead, I feel that he's most likely actively trying to look past Thiel's support. I'm not making a judgement whether to look past it is the right thing, but I don't think pg either is am…

pg left YC two years ago. He no longer has the authority to disinvite Thiel.

> He no longer has the authority to disinvite Thiel.

He still has significant influence with YC, and has so far refused to personally distance himself from Thiel despite raging against Trump on twitter (a fact over which he's been taken to task by the likes of @pinboard and tptacek).

Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#263

Post by bcheung »

jowiar wrote: post #223
bcheung wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To take his support of the Republican party to mean that he is against non-white, non-males is dishonest and straw man. If you have some evidence then present it. Thiel is both Libertarian and gay. Clearly he doesn't support everything in Trump and the Republican party.

That wasn't the argument I was making. What I was saying is that a policy of "We will allow people to express their political views free of judgement and consequence" only really works when "political views" is taken to mean "things we're saying about people who aren't in the room".

I'm not sure I follow. Any political view usually affects all people in any room.

Are you referring to Trump's bigotry? Sure, I'll admit, he is definitely a character in that regard. But again there's realistically only 2 choices. Thiel is going to take whichever one is closest. It's not ideal but that's the choice Libertarians are often forced to make.

Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#264

Post by paulv »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #218
timehastoldme wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it's a stand against a movement which opposes their moral principles. To Pao (and, to the extent that it matters, me), D. Trump's movement is so vile that any prominent supporters of it waive their right to being tolerated. I am sure you'd agree that doing so would be acceptable if Thiel supported Strom Thurmond, Viktor Orban, or Mao Zedong; it's just a matter of how bad D. Trump is.

"Strom Thurmond" How about Hillary Clinton's "friend and mentor", a man of "eloquence and nobility" (her actual words) Robert C. Byrd? You know, "KKK Kleagle" Byrd? "Tried to filibuster the 1964 Civil Rights Act" Byrd? "I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side. ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of…

Nope.

"I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened." -- Robert Byrd

"Senator Byrd reflects the transformative power of this nation," stated NAACP President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous. "Senator Byrd went from being an active member of the KKK to a being a stalwart supporter of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and many other pieces of seminal legislation that advanced the civil rights and liberties of our country.

"Senator Byrd came to consistently support the NAACP civil rights agenda, doing well on the NAACP Annual Civil Rights Report Card. He stood with us on many issues of crucial importance to our members from the reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act, the historic health care legislation of 2010 and his support for the Hate Crimes Prevention legislation," stated Hilary O. Shelton, Director of the NAACP Washington Bureau and Senior Vice President for Advocacy and Policy."

http://www.snopes.com/clinton-byrd-photo-klan/

Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#265

Post by jowiar »

bcheung wrote: post #251
braythwayt wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He may not be explicitly against non-white, non-male, non-gay, non-christian people, but he may be perfectly willing to have them thrown under the bus as long as he gets what he wants. Some people find that deplorable. There is a similar dynamic in play with Trump's support from evangelicals. His personal choices are nearly 100% at odds with their social conservatism, but many evangelicals seem ok with this as long a…

Sure, but that's a consequence of a 2 party system and choosing the lesser evil, isn't it? He's both Libertarian and gay, both are extremely socially liberal. Why do you say he is socially conservative? I'm not seeing that. A lot of Libertarian tend to vote Republican because they feel stronger about economic issues, high taxes, 2nd amendment, freedom of religion, etc, than they do about social issues but that is jus…

> A lot of Libertarian tend to vote Republican because they feel stronger about economic issues, high taxes, 2nd amendment, freedom of religion, etc, than they do about social issues

But that's the problem. Who exactly are affected by these "Social issues"? (Hint: It's not rich white guys).

Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#266

Post by ZenoArrow »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #191
ZenoArrow wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Your premise is bogus. There's no reason to think Hillary Clinton is personally responsible for an increase in weapons sales, especially considering that such sales increased across the board under Obama." Was that during the period when Hilary Clinton was Secretary of State or in the period when John Kerry had that role? In any case, the sad part is people having to defend one of two subpar candidates in this ele…

I disagree that Clinton is shitty. She certainly represents "politics as usual", and that is the current bogeyman of the hour. But ultimately she's an effective politician with reasonable positions. Sure, there were likely better choices (not really counting Bernie here), but the two major parties cast big tents and so the candidates they bring represent that which is palatable to the largest amount of people. A larg…

Two questions:

1. You stated that Hilary Clinton is "an effective politician with reasonable positions". Which of Hilary Clinton's positions do you like?

2. Which part(s) of Bernie's platform do you think held back his chances of winning the nomination/election?

Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#267

Post by sulam »

debacle wrote: post #179
sulam wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two larges groups of people who are voting for Trump regardless of anything he does (as he said: he could shoot people down on 5th avenue and these people would still vote for him). The largest group of them are Republicans who will always vote Republican. My beef with these people is that I wish they were a little more loyal to our country's values than they were to their party, but fundamentally I've got…

What percentage of the population do you think really identifies as white nationalist?

Out of the 40% that support Trump, the numbers I've seen are that roughly 10% support his identity politics. They might not call themselves white nationalists, but they are attracted by someone "telling it like it is" with respect to immigrants, inner cities, etc.

IOW, a very large part of Trump's core supporters are simply Republicans that will vote for him because he is at the top of the Republican ticket. They would also have voted for Rubio or even Kasich. They don't like a number of things he's said or done, but they will vote for the Republican before they vote for a Democrat (especially Hillary Clinton).

The minority, though, are not really Republicans -- they are truly a right wing nationalist cohort that is very attuned to things like Trump's "David Duke who?" initial response to his endorsement.

With respect to the other comment about Republicans reaching out to these people: the Southern strategy is a 50-yr old strategy that the Republican party has consciously and publicly tried to move away from in the last 8 years as demographics have made it less and less likely to deliver the Whitehouse. Yes these people have been loosely attached to the Republican party, but as the Republican party moves away from them, they've also moved away from it.

The natural thing, if we didn't have a legally supported two-party system, would be for a Marie Le Pen style nationalist party to form behind Trump.

Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#268

Post by saint_fiasco »

mootothemax wrote: post #75

Hang on - Thiel thinks women shouldn't have the right to vote, and has written unambiguously as much? How on earth is that not the argument for dropping him? From another angle, how on earth can you trust someone's advice if they truly and honestly think like that? I'm honestly shocked YC can champion women founders while having someone like this involved as a partner. Just shocking. And so, so disappointing.

how on earth can you trust someone's advice if they truly and honestly think like that?

Maybe Thiel is like an idiot savant who has a natural talent for investing. Just because John Nash was literally mentally ill doesn't mean he wasn't good at his job.

Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#269

Post by jowiar »

bcheung wrote: post #263
jowiar wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't the argument I was making. What I was saying is that a policy of "We will allow people to express their political views free of judgement and consequence" only really works when "political views" is taken to mean "things we're saying about people who aren't in the room".

I'm not sure I follow. Any political view usually affects all people in any room. Are you referring to Trump's bigotry? Sure, I'll admit, he is definitely a character in that regard. But again there's realistically only 2 choices. Thiel is going to take whichever one is closest. It's not ideal but that's the choice Libertarians are often forced to make.

Get a bunch of men in a room, and discuss abortion.

Get a bunch of straight folks in a room and discuss AIDS research funding.

Get a bunch of white folks in a room and discuss police treatment of African-Americans.

Get a bunch of 5th-generation Americans in a room and discuss funding for ESL programs in schools.

Re: Peter Thiel, YC, and hard decisions

#270

Post by Turing_Machine »

paulv wrote: post #264
Turing_Machine wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Strom Thurmond" How about Hillary Clinton's "friend and mentor", a man of "eloquence and nobility" (her actual words) Robert C. Byrd? You know, "KKK Kleagle" Byrd? "Tried to filibuster the 1964 Civil Rights Act" Byrd? "I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side. ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of…

Nope. "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened." -- Robert Byrd "Senator Byrd reflects the transformative power of this nation," stated NAACP President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous. "Senator Byrd went from being an active member of the KKK to a being a stalwart supporter of the Civil R…

Strom Thurmond also repudiated his earlier racism, but that didn't stop the OP from using him as a litmus test.

Why is that?

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