Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 441 posts

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#261

Post by ajuc »

briandear wrote: post #150
ajuc wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a cellphone is voluntarily, too. Post office as well. Can phone operators sell the social graph of users to 3rd parties, then? It's so dumb...

Post office really isn't voluntary. When I get my required tax forms from France, if I don't have the post office, I'm unable to complete an action required by the State. That means the Post Office isn't voluntary unless you want to break the law. When my kid's school requires What's App in order to submit required documents, then there might be a claim that What's App rises to the importance of the Post Office or th…

Right. However there's many competing post services providers in my country, and the ones used by the government and institutions change from time to time (there's open competition every few years and for a while courts were using different provider than the usual national post for example). And no matter which one was "mandatory" at any given time - all of them have to keep the secret of correspondence and have to comply with the law regarding storing private informations etc.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#262

Post by psykpsyk »

marco1 wrote: post #237
kbaker wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even have to have wifi enabled, even when Wi-Fi is OFF it will still scan for SSIDs to use for location by default. You have to disable an obscure setting to get it to stop this behavior.

But even after the device has detected the (B)SSID, you have to enable either Wi-Fi or your mobile data connection for the device to communicate with Google's servers. Still, just as worrisome.

What are you guys arguing about? That you can't escape those services grubby apetite for data was exactly GPs point...

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#263

Post by lbebber »

cortesoft wrote: post #254
lbebber wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That snark is uncalled for. Stopping using WhatsApp and Facebook would make communication with some groups much more difficult for me, for example, because everyone uses them.

Ok, so in return Facebook and WhatsApp get to learn about you. That is the cost of doing business with them. Why is that cost so different than the normal cost we pay for things (cash money)? Yes, things we value have costs. It is always a sacrifice to go without that thing, but if we want to AVOID having to go without it, we have to pay something. "I can't believe you are making me pay this cell phone bill! I have n…

You misunderstood my comment. My point is that quitting WhatsApp, when everybody around you uses it, is not simple and does not warrant that snark.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#264

Post by Gracana »

cortesoft wrote: post #254
lbebber wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That snark is uncalled for. Stopping using WhatsApp and Facebook would make communication with some groups much more difficult for me, for example, because everyone uses them.

Ok, so in return Facebook and WhatsApp get to learn about you. That is the cost of doing business with them. Why is that cost so different than the normal cost we pay for things (cash money)? Yes, things we value have costs. It is always a sacrifice to go without that thing, but if we want to AVOID having to go without it, we have to pay something. "I can't believe you are making me pay this cell phone bill! I have n…

If I give someone money, it is their money and they can do what they want with it, it does not matter to me. If I give someone information about myself, it's still connected to me, but now it's under their control. They can use it to exploit or harm me, and so can anyone they sell it to, or anyone who steals it. It's that indeterminate potential for future abuse that makes it important. That's why we consider it differently.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#265

Post by tw04 »

oldsj wrote: post #242
tw04 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's completely reasonable to replace real-time group chat with... a conference call among 6 friends? Hey guys, I know ALL of you chat with WhatsApp, but can we move to email just for me and my concerns around security that you don't care about at all? Seriously... you can make completely unreasonable suggestions until you're blue in the face but it's not going to change reality. There are very real social press…

Wasnt it $19 billion?

You are absolutely right, I guess I better correct that, thanks!

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#266

Post by psykpsyk »

briandear wrote: post #142
adrianN wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Using the phone network is a voluntary decision, nobody is forced to own a phone."

There aren't alternatives to a telephone system: there is essentially 'one' telephone. What's App is hardly a monopoly. Users could use SMS, Skype or any number of alternatives that provide almost identical utility. It isn't like comparing a telephone with hand written notes. Interestingly, what led to What's App? Telephone company monopolies on SMS. The internet itself could be considered a public utility -- not wha…

You do realize there was a time that you could pay for WhatsApp, don't you? But now you can only pay with your personal data. Sorry if that doesn't quite suit your agenda, but that's how it was and how it is.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#267

Post by School-Cotton »

smoyer wrote: post #7

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I think it's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. My hope is that the increasing outrage will drive users to one of the secure messaging appl…

Google etc. are not in the same business as the credit reporting agencies.

The latter collect your data and sell it to third parties. The former collect your data, keep it a tightly-guarded secret, do not sell it to anyone, and use it to make their own product more profitable.

I think the difference is important to keep in mind.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#268

Post by ashark »

Klathmon wrote: post #193
alkonaut wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you then pay for the services in full that you now could use for free? I don't use them free, I pay with my information. I just don't know exactly how much I'm paying. I'm happy to pay in either form, as long as I know exactly what I'm paying.

This I could get behind. Make legislation that forces a company to disclose the information they collect in an explicit way. As a consumer I'd also like a way to force my data to be deleted, and be notified if my data is being sold or transferred by an acquisition or something, but I'm not sure how that would work. What I don't want is not having the ability to "pay with data". I don't want to subscribe to everything…

I say make any company collecting info (beyond maybe some very bare-bones basics that any company providing a service pretty much has to have, like name, address, phone number) about its users provide that info, say, once a year, on request. Kinda like the annual free credit reports from the credit agencies.

ALL of it, too. Every time. Not just what was collected since last report. Even require that they provide it on physical media if desired. Again, for free, including postage.

"But that will be so expensive because we collect so much and never get rid of any!"

... yeah, so what?

Now they're free to do it but can't hide what they're collecting and can't hold your data hostage. And there's some cost associated with collecting more than is absolutely necessary.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#269

Post by moxie »

FabHK wrote: post #168
vazamb wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate? I am using Telegram not because of privacy concerns but because of the desktop and tablet clients. I had absolutely no issues so far.

Telegram's weak points, as far as I can tell: * chats not end-to-end encrypted by default (only secure chats), so clear text is on their servers * group chats can't be secure chats * the crypto is somewhat unconventional. While the developers had their reasons (constraints of mobile platforms), and no exploit has been found so far, AFAIK, any self-rolled crypto is a bit of a red flag to cryptographers. * I have no re…

Wire does not use Signal Protocol. They use a protocol of their own devising that we do not recommend.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#270

Post by tjl »

smokeyj wrote: post #231
technofiend wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But if you have a database of the entire population and can correlate relationships in data That's exactly what the legislation constrains - Zuck's select * from where user_id = 'technofiend' returns 3 rows not hundreds or thousands, or zero if I've opted out of data collection entirely. You can't simply throw your hands up and say "Well Facebook has a billion users too bad so sad if they collect data you don't like…

Adopting an alternative to Zuckernet is the exact opposite. Continuing to hand your life's data to Zuck is to throw your hands up. Begging your politician for a little privacy from Zuck when strong encryption exists is to throw your hands up. People care enough about privacy to complain about it but not enough to do anything. I don't have much sympathy for them.

One problem is that they collect "shadow" profiles of people who aren't even on the service. If someone who has your contact info is on the service, they'll start a profile of you based on that. Plus, there's many web sites that are connected to Facebook and send info back to it without you even knowing about it, just by having a Facebook share button on the page. It's very difficult to avoid having any of your data on Facebook's servers.
Post reply on HN