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ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

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Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#261

Post by wallace_f »

dntrkv wrote: post #130
donatj wrote: post #54

I went to a similar for-profit school in Minnesota who also similarly shut down last year. I still feel like they get a bad rap. Was it overpriced? Probably. Did I learn a ton and have small class sizes. Absolutely. The instructors had all previously worked in the industry, and knew their topics very well. On top of all that, after graduation their persistent pestering of "how many places did you apply to this week?"…

Just because you had a great experience does not negate the fact that for-profit college students, statistically, fare much worse. A common pattern I have seen: Person does terrible in high school, doesn't get into a good college because they don't have the drive or commitment to get good grades. They go to community college, and surprise, they again get terrible grades and stop going. After a while they want to go b…

On the other hand:

>Person does terrible in high school,doesn't get into a good college because they don't have the drive or commitment to get good grades.

That was me

>They go to community college

That was me

>surprise, they again get terrible grades and stop going

Nope, that was not me. I got a 4.0 in communnity college

>Anyways, these sales people will constantly pester you trying to get you to signup and take out huge loans because for some reason we think that it's ok to lend someone with terrible credit $50K+ in worthless education.

Essentially, that was also me. I was utterly convinced and sold that going to a high ranking university was the best thing for me

>The end result is either them regretting their decision or trying to justify it with some bullshit about it being a good learning experience or something of the sort.

Back to that being me again

>You can get a much better education for cheaper at a community college.

My community college education was mostly useless except for a few classes: 2 science classes (although one of the profs had a lawsuit with the school which affected our course quality), 1 course in calc, and 1 course in sociology/economics with a particularly good professor. A lot of the courses taught me either stuff I already knew, could learn easily with freely available resources online, or stuff that wasn't true or had no understandable merit.

TL;DR I didn't do my homework in high school. I got a job at a ski resort out of high school, then went to community college, got a 4.0, went to a high ranking university, ended up unemployed with a 50k+ education. Granted, I graduated during the recession, but this exact thing can happen to you if you are going to good universities as well.

I would rather have skipped community college and uni, spent the money on skiing in Switzerland and taught myself maths and programming while continuing to work in ski resorts and something that involved a summer hobby of mine like mountain biking, alpine hiking, long distance running or with video games.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#262

Post by jotato »

dljs wrote: post #254
jotato wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated from ITT 11 years ago. Care if I chime in? * Why did I go? I was just out of high-school and I wanted to be a software engineer. I looked at the local university (Robert Morris in Pittsburgh, PA), but I didn't like their program. I was one of those kids who started tinkering with programming at 12 by making Pokemon fan sites :) 4 Years at a university studying a generic comp-sci degree didn't appeal to me…

Hi, I am like you. I graduated 7 years ago from ITT. I went for the same reason you did as I looked at the processes of traditional universities and didn't want to be in a lecture hall. I got a 2 year degree in CNS. I have been a software engineer for 8 years now professionally. Like you I saw it was for profit and the teachers were pressured into passing people even though they clearly shouldn't have. Some of the te…

So your credits did transfer then? (some of them?)

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#263

Post by jimbokun »

ohyes wrote: post #203
dntrkv wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you had a great experience does not negate the fact that for-profit college students, statistically, fare much worse. A common pattern I have seen: Person does terrible in high school, doesn't get into a good college because they don't have the drive or commitment to get good grades. They go to community college, and surprise, they again get terrible grades and stop going. After a while they want to go b…

The end result you describe isn't much different than a number of 4 year undergraduate degrees, PhDs or masters programs (all at "good" colleges). The best advice I ever received was to not pursue a Ph.D. in philosophy. It's wrong to think that departments at not-for-profit schools don't have a marketing incentive that is (at best) indifferent to the best interests of the student.

"It's wrong to think that departments at not-for-profit schools don't have a marketing incentive that is (at best) indifferent to the best interests of the student."

You're right, so let's start cutting off the federal loans spigot to them next.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#264

Post by dntrkv »

ohyes wrote: post #203
dntrkv wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you had a great experience does not negate the fact that for-profit college students, statistically, fare much worse. A common pattern I have seen: Person does terrible in high school, doesn't get into a good college because they don't have the drive or commitment to get good grades. They go to community college, and surprise, they again get terrible grades and stop going. After a while they want to go b…

The end result you describe isn't much different than a number of 4 year undergraduate degrees, PhDs or masters programs (all at "good" colleges). The best advice I ever received was to not pursue a Ph.D. in philosophy. It's wrong to think that departments at not-for-profit schools don't have a marketing incentive that is (at best) indifferent to the best interests of the student.

A couple differences between the two:

a. A diploma from a public university carries a certain level of prestige, unlike a for-profit college diploma, which is more of a red flag when looking through resumes.

b. The cost of that diploma will be, on average, much higher from a for profit college. This issue gets compounded by the fact that people applying to these for-profit colleges are, on average, of lower income brackets and also going back to point A, those diplomas don't hold the same prestige. So you are charging poorer people more for something worth less.

As to your second point, go take a tour of a public university and then a for-profit university and you will see the difference between the application process. The for-profit university will feel like your joining a 24 hour fitness, both in the sleazy sales tactics and how much pressure they will put on you to sign up.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#265

Post by dljs »

jotato wrote: post #262
dljs wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I am like you. I graduated 7 years ago from ITT. I went for the same reason you did as I looked at the processes of traditional universities and didn't want to be in a lecture hall. I got a 2 year degree in CNS. I have been a software engineer for 8 years now professionally. Like you I saw it was for profit and the teachers were pressured into passing people even though they clearly shouldn't have. Some of the te…

So your credits did transfer then? (some of them?)

Yes, I was surprised.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#266

Post by jimbokun »

kajjffkk wrote: post #243
robotcookies wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that all schools should have partial liability for the defaults of their students. You make a good point that this heavy-handed regulation of schools by shutting them down can hurt a few people who may benefit from alternative schools. If all schools were partially liable for loan defaults (say 50%), they would pay far more attention into creating programs that have good job prospects and less on programs t…

I dont want my school hustling me down the likeliest path to become corporate cannon fodder at ABC Corp when I'm trying to build a startup. Not everyone goes to school to "get a job".

Then don't go to school and just start your startup.

This conversation is about government backed education loans. It's not clear why the US government should be issuing education loans at all, let alone issuing them to students who are very unlikely to pay them back. Or at least have their real income greatly curtailed for decades by loan payments.

If you just want to get an education for personal reasons, figure out how to pay for it on your own without relying on taxpayers.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#267

Post by jimbokun »

colechristensen wrote: post #180
komali2 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a lot of hit and miss with these schools. With the rise of bootcamps as well, I wonder - is there any organization / website / agency compiling and auditing a list of these types of schools? It'd be great to be able to say "I want to become a pipeline designer" and knowing with Better Business Bureau level of confidence that I was choosing a good training program.

This is what accreditation is supposed to be for. http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/ It does need to be reformed a bit though for what you might call the 'low end' ... that is training programs finely tuned for specific skills.

Just clicked on the link. Seems to only do binary categorization of "accredited" and "not accredited". Would probably be more useful if they made available all of the data they collect as part of the accreditation process, to allow journalists, prospective students, etc. dig into the details.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#268

Post by dragonwriter »

jimbokun wrote: post #267
colechristensen wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what accreditation is supposed to be for. http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/ It does need to be reformed a bit though for what you might call the 'low end' ... that is training programs finely tuned for specific skills.

Just clicked on the link. Seems to only do binary categorization of "accredited" and "not accredited". Would probably be more useful if they made available all of the data they collect as part of the accreditation process, to allow journalists, prospective students, etc. dig into the details.

DOE doesn't collect the kind of data you are probably thinking of as part of the accreditation process, because DOE doesn't do that. Accreditors do that, and DOE has a set of accreditors whose accreditation it accepts. DOE does provide the data it collects, which is the name and effective dates of the accreditors for institutional, special, and internship/residency accreditations for each institution. (It also provides links to the accreditors in many cases, and those sometimes provide publicly more of the data that they collect during accreditation.)

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#269

Post by rbanffy »

tadfisher wrote: post #208
bradleyjg wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there may well be more bad (by whatever metric) for-profit colleges there are also bad non-profit colleges. And non-profit itself is a bit of misnomer. It is true that registered non-profits can't pay dividends to their shareholders, but they can and sometimes do pay exorbitant salaries to those that have control over them. As the gainful employment rule[1] currently stands it exempts degree programs from publi…

Be careful what you wish for. This would basically kill liberal arts programs and the idea of a well-rounded post-secondary education. The incentive would be to transform universities into job-training programs. I know there is an ongoing debate about the worth of a liberal arts education in the modern economy, but there's something to be said about the traditional notion of education for education's sake, rather tha…

Maybe the solution would be to inject liberal arts into every curriculum if the college wants access to subsidies.

Producing well-rounded citizens is very important for a functioning society, therefore, it makes lots of sense to create incentives to produce well-roundedness.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#270

Post by jimbokun »

Practicality wrote: post #81
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or aggressively recruit you by calling you non-stop and using manipulative pressure tactics Wow, you just reminded me of something funny that happened about 15 years ago. A younger friend of mine was interested in tech, and knew I was "good with computers". They had taken some online quiz, and said I should take it. So I took it, and filled out my info thinking I might win something (I was young, and didn't particula…

" I am very surprised anybody ever buys anything from pushy salespeople. " Agreed. The irony is the majority of people do. Sadly, most people are irrational > 50% of the time. Sure. They are capable of being rational, but they don't exercise that capability.

And that doesn't exclude those of us posting on Hacker News.
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