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Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

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Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#261

Post by abalashov »

spangry wrote: post #211
ta_donk_gt wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an opposing anecdote, I've spent a significant percentage of my software development years in the medical arena. The overwhelming majority of doctors that I have worked with do not work as hard, anywhere near as many hours, or under as much stress and the overwhelming majority of software developers I have worked with. The stressful period for most doctors is getting into medical school, getting through medical sc…

Very on point about the AMA functioning as a union. I'm not a software developer (and don't even live in the US) so apologies if this question is ridiculous: could software developers form a union, er I mean the 'American Software Developers Association'? There are strong network effects in many digital markets. In these cases, given enough time, it leads to a monopolist employer in that market. Even in cases where t…

I'm not a software developer (and don't even live in the US) so apologies if this question is ridiculous: could software developers form a union, er I mean the 'American Software Developers Association'?

Well, the real nuance is that the AMA is not so much a union as a guild. It's not _legal_ to perform medical services without an AMA-blessed licence to practice.

If one could concoct a scheme by which it would be illegal to perform "unlicenced" software engineering work, I suppose there would be the same effect.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#262

Post by xapata »

jtfairbank wrote: post #191
xapata wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software will continue its bifurcation into two income distributions, similar to lawyers. No lawyer earns average salary. That industry is split into low wage work and high wage work. I expect software will be the same.

This seems to be a trend among many highly paid fields: - Many doctors earn 100k or 3-400k depending on their field. - Many small business owners earn - 9 out of 10 startups outright fail or aren't successful enough to compensate founders & employees for the opportunity cost.

It's hard to tell what the distribution of income is without good data. I'm skeptical that normal, non-startup businesses fall into this pattern. I'd expect more of a log-normal for most industries.

The log-normal also applies somewhat for lawyers. The partners of big firms make millions annually.

As long as we're getting into nuance, I should add that the two-peak distribution is most clear for lawyer starting salary, not long-time professional. You either go top firm or not.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#263

Post by nommm-nommm »

anthony_barker wrote: post #254
ta_donk_gt wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an opposing anecdote, I've spent a significant percentage of my software development years in the medical arena. The overwhelming majority of doctors that I have worked with do not work as hard, anywhere near as many hours, or under as much stress and the overwhelming majority of software developers I have worked with. The stressful period for most doctors is getting into medical school, getting through medical sc…

Doctors working well into their 60s or 70s? Yes Coders? Never. Interview for medical job: Normal Coders?: Often humiliating

What? I work with 60+ year old coders.

I guess your 22 year old founder of a trendy Bay Area startup would have a problem hiring a 60 year old but that's both silly and illegal. I'm not sure trendy Bay Area startups attract the 60+ crowd anyway.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#264

Post by gedy »

grecy wrote: post #182
pjmorris wrote: post #36

'Amazon is piloting 25% pay cuts'. I wonder if the group that does this will be viewed as lesser, e.g. work on less interesting projects, be less likely to be promoted, than the "40" hour employees.

> 'Amazon is piloting 25% pay cuts'. Great! Let's be honest - most working professionals (especially in Software) earn more money than they need . I think it's much better to have more time - time with you family, time to be outdoors, time to be healthy - than it is to have more money

Say that in 20 years when you are looking at how to retire for the next 20-30 years with no pension, and from companies who don't want old people.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#265

Post by brianwawok »

Buge wrote: post #70
gfody wrote: post #37

Something about this bothers me. Time-keeping is already not straightforward for an engineer. Because the work is done in our heads and doesn't necessarily stop just because the workday is over. You don't have to be sitting at a keyboard for your head to be grinding on a problem. More often some problem takes hold of you, occupying some mental bandwidth even while you're away, at home trying to enjoy time with your f…

Well these workers get 75% salary, but still get full benefits. So they get more than 75% overall value.

And they likely do more than 75% work in those 75% hours as your marginal utility goes down after perhaps 20 hours a week.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#266

Post by scrabble »

gfody wrote: post #37

Something about this bothers me. Time-keeping is already not straightforward for an engineer. Because the work is done in our heads and doesn't necessarily stop just because the workday is over. You don't have to be sitting at a keyboard for your head to be grinding on a problem. More often some problem takes hold of you, occupying some mental bandwidth even while you're away, at home trying to enjoy time with your f…

what bothers me about it is the 75% pay, because I could never imagine not putting in additional hours.

Were I only getting 75% of the pay of a full time worker, you can be sure I'd never put in a single additional hour.

I could say that a drop in my hours to 40 / week would be nice, but I'm the one who chooses to work longer hours. There's no expectation of longer hours where I am. I'm also usually not productive 8 hours in a row every day, sometimes significantly less than that. It ends up being very much a give / take scenario.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#267

Post by jessedhillon »

jchendy wrote: post #88
vibrato wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are piloting it on internal HR software which I think says a lot. To me this seems like a purely PR driven move after the lambasting their culture has taken lately.

> They are piloting it on internal HR software which I think says a lot. There's a tendency for people to think that HR software and other internal tools are less important than public products, but if the company is allocating employees properly, that doesn't really make sense. The engineers working on this HR software all passed the same technical interviews that everybody else did. Amazon could have easily allocat…

If you're working on an internal product, your work is not standing up to, or shaped by, market pressures. At least not to the level of that of your peers who are working on public-facing projects. I've seen a tendency for internal projects to develop in a way that is more academic and less practical, for exactly this reason.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#268

Post by draw_down »

thesimpsons1022 wrote: post #253
draw_down wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree on the reason why they're doing this, but I've actually always wanted this deal, or something like it. Less hours for less pay, which as a software professional would still be pretty good money. The challenge is having that be accepted by the organization, which most American companies won't because we're all supposed to love what we do or whatever. If you're supposed to still accomplish the same amount of…

never heard of a bag that has a weight limit instead of a volume limit.

Shhhh.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#269

Post by toomuchtodo »

andrewguenther wrote: post #112
toomuchtodo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your viewpoint, without experience, is toxic to rational discussions regarding remote work (and is ironic, considering your employer).

My viewpoint is exactly that, my viewpoint. I make it well known that when I am working from home it is likely because I have 9-5 errands to run, but I will be available throughout the day.

Viewpoints are anecdotal. Bring data, not opinions.

Re: Amazon is piloting teams with a 30-hour workweek

#270

Post by obmelvin »

vectorjohn wrote: post #179
crack-the-code wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be part of the same philosophy of "trying everything," but it would be naive to say that there are no motivations of improving the negative reputation Amazon has built upon itself through its intensive work ethic.

How DARE they try to improve their reputation by offering something people want. The scum!

I've never understood why people paint companies making changes after negative publicity as such a scummy thing. Not all good changes can be thought of in advance. Making a change should not be viewed as scummy after negative feedback. In fact, not listening and adjusting is the worse move.
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