How the Arab World Came Apart • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#261

Post by nayefc » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:07 PM UTC

jcranmer wrote: post #238

douche wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before they were western protectorates, they were Ottoman protectorates. It's been a mess for a long, long time. Once the oil runs out, or we move beyond oil, the whole region will be relegated to the kind of backwater it became after the advent of world-wide oceanic shipping in the age of sail and the overland trade routes were superseded.

The Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire were not protectorates, they were full provinces of the Ottoman Empire and as much a core part of the empire as the Balkans or Anatolia. The regions of Tunisia, Algeria, and Tripolitania were largely closer to independent vassal or client states; Egypt was effectively an autonomous fief, particularly during the 19th century (by WWI it was more a part of the British Empire than…

This is more or less true however, it's important to note that the Ottoman Empire spanned for many centuries and the Empire and its rule (administratively or otherwise) looked very different in the 16th century than in the 19th century. Egypt was under direct control in the beginning, it rebelled, then turned into a feudal system and then it became pretty much autonomous. Empires change a lot over time that its really hard to capture centuries worth of history in a few sentences (hence the generalisations).

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#262

Post by mustaflex » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:08 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #220

mustaflex wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the White man's burden syndrom? France was the colonial power in control over there, they used basic divide and conquer tactics. While the sunnis arabs are in majority in Syria they took another minority faction, the nusayriis, and trained them in military schools, etc... to put them in power. It's like having a protestant pope in Vatican. Contrary to Europe where different ethnic groups are well separated in differe…

> France was the colonial power in control over there, they used basic divide and conquer tactics. And while France ran Algeria and Lebanon, they were thriving, pleasant, peaceful, beautiful places. Beirut was once one of the loveliest cities in the world. There are worst things than colonialism; to a first approximation, every single post-colonial country is worse off than it was when it was a colony (I wouldn't cou…

I don't know about Algeria, but again in Lebanon your so called "pleasant peaceful and beautiful place" was like that because it did favor minorities and some small groups at the detriment of others. It was bound to collapse after the colonial forces withdrew.

And let me be clear, I didn't say that it is better now, but your theory that it was better when colonial powers were in charge is false.

"every single post-colonial country is worse off than it was when it was a colony (I wouldn't count the U.S. as post-colonial because in a very real sense it's a successful colony)."

...that is the definition of colonization, it is only successful if you overcome the local population. Again it is successful at the detriment of the local population (or a part of it).

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#263

Post by Diederich » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

tdkl wrote: post #242

rm999 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source? I just searched and see no such pledge. All I'm finding are vague statements from her allies and advisors that they think she'll prioritize Syria.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/29/hillary-clinton-w... Just a reminder, this is the presidential candidate in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIRYvJQeHM

Ok, so to be clear, I'm pretty unhappy Clinton's generally hawkish approach to foreign affairs. However, especially with such emotional matters, we should be as precise as possible: > ... removing Assad...

Citation still needed. The material you provided is interesting and perhaps notable, and perhaps, if followed through, could be first steps in a campaign to remove Assad. But it's far from a direct call for regime change, as you are claiming.

Again, I'm probably more in agreement with your perspective than disagreement, but we all parties are best served if we make make more precise, evidence backed claims.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#264

Post by d23 » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

I wish long form, informative articles like this had a way to donate a small amount of money to show appreciation. I don't read any particular news outlet enough to get an exclusive subscription with them, but I'd love to reward them for good individual pieces.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#265

Post by sevenless » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

brassic wrote: post #259

bogomipz wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I can't recommend this Frontline piece highly enough - "Losing Iraq". Its practically a case book study on the missteps that took place under the leadership of Paul Bremmer a Kissinger associate and who was chosen to lead the CPA - Coalition Provisional Authority(the transition government) after the US took Baghdad. Bremmer knew nothing of Iraqi politics and was only briefed on them on the flight to Baghdad.…

"Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Baghdad's Green Zone" is an excellent book on the same topic. What is most staggering (to a foreigner like me anyway) is how the appointment of American administrators in Iraq was entirely driven by American politics. Experience and competence were of no importance. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperial-Life-Emerald-City-Baghdads...

This is an understatement. I recall one episode in that book where a competent manager in Baghdad was fired because he didn't hate abortion.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#266

Post by bogomipz » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

metaphorm wrote: post #246

bogomipz wrote: post #147

"The Arab World" - What does that even mean? Arab is a language distinction, a language of which there are many dialects. As Arabic is spoken from Western Sahara all the way east to Oman that pretty much disqualifies Arab World from having geographical significance. Arab also does not denote religious faith as there are Arab Jews, Arab Christians(Coptic) and of course Arab Muslims. There was once briefly a concept of…

are you actually confused about which people are being referred to though? seems like you're just getting pedantic here. Every single country profiled in the piece is majority Arab (ethnically), majority Arab (linguistically), and majority Muslim (religiously). what more meaningful distinction would you make that clarifies things? "Middle Eastern countries currently on fire"? They are certainly all countries that can…

I am not confused at all. I am pointing out that it is a BS term, with no accepted definition. That's hardly pedantry.

And no you can't just say "Middle Eastern counties, the countries of the Mahgreb are "on fire" and they are not geographically part of the Middle East.

So according to you the meaningful distinction is that its "currently on fire"? What happens if its not on fire or stabilizes politically? Does its status change?

How about Mauritania, the Comoros, and Morocco. Majority Arab and Muslim and generally not front page news.

Why does this matter? Because it's incredibly reductionist. There are tribal dynamics at work in all of the countries mentioned in this article that extremely difficult for a casual observer to understand. These are tribal affiliations that predate Islam. And there is no analog for them in the Western world from which the term "Arab World" springs. It's very hand wavy to just say "The Arab World" and this propagation of an Arab singularity is itself a source of problems.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#267

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:19 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#268

Post by agumonkey » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:21 PM UTC

mkaziz wrote: post #252

agumonkey wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long is a prayer in Islam ? it's an interesting idea but it's hard to believe that this has such a significant impact.

2-4 minutes. About the length of a standard coffee break

Alright, the point above is thus irrelevant.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#269

Post by peterwwillis » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:22 PM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #147

"The Arab World" - What does that even mean? Arab is a language distinction, a language of which there are many dialects. As Arabic is spoken from Western Sahara all the way east to Oman that pretty much disqualifies Arab World from having geographical significance. Arab also does not denote religious faith as there are Arab Jews, Arab Christians(Coptic) and of course Arab Muslims. There was once briefly a concept of…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs

  Arabs (Arabic: عرب‎‎, ‘arab) are a panethnicity of peoples native to the Arab world.
  They primarily inhabit Western Asia, North Africa, and parts of the Horn of Africa.
  
  In modern usage Arab refers to a heterogeneous collection of Arabic-speaking peoples
  in Western Asia and North Africa. The ties that bind Arabs are linguistic,
  cultural, political, and ethnic, with Arabized Arabs displaying genetic admixture
  from the Arabian peninsula as well as indigenous elements.
  
  As such, Arab identity is based on one or more of genealogical, linguistic or
  cultural grounds, although with competing identities often taking a more prominent
  role, based on considerations including regional, national, clan, kin, sect,
  and tribe affiliations and relationships. Not all people who could be considered
  Arab identify as such. If the Arab pan-ethnicity is regarded as a single
  population, then it constitutes the world's second largest group of people
  after the Han Chinese.

In terms of the way they're using it, they're not talking about "kinship". They're talking about the countries in a general region that are generally majority Arab population, and their relationship to one another. It's like "Western world" or "Eastern world", but much more narrow.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#270

Post by hacker42 » Thu, Aug 11, 2016, 4:26 PM UTC

ihsw wrote: post #121

hacker42 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think addressing cultural flaws more directly could make such social programs more effective.

Calling them cultural flaws and saying they need to be addressed is one of the worst first steps you can take, but setting aside that there are already many Muslims integrating into Western society without having directly addressed the those issues. Simply allowing them to participate in Western society is enough to sufficiently "address" those issues, as many will naturally gravitate towards more progressive and lib…

Why not call the flaws what they are? The diffusion of values seems to be a very slow process, if it works at all given the ever growing Muslim population. The percentage of third generation Muslims in Western countries who still don't really oppose ideas of violence and misogyny in the Quran and who would prefer to return to a social order of the lifetime of Muhammed is astonishingly high (~30%), and Muslim fanatics in the Middle East are also often highly educated. They know about Western values, but they don't value them. Why should they, given that our view is all wrong to them?

It boils down to the simple question whether value diffusion is faster than they breed and escape possible upcoming droughts and whether there really is potential for a major cultural clash. Some people say it's obvious in one way or the other. I really don't know. I am also not convinced by anything I'm writing, I am just trying to get some confirmation or disconfirmation of these sort of ideas.