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San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

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Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#261

Post by rifung »

qntty wrote: post #213
sfotoatx wrote: post #130

Lots of naysayers on HN, but I left SF last year and moved to Austin. I have zero regrets. In SF, my 1 bedroom, 650 square foot apartment in SOMA went from $2,600 to $3,200 over 3 years. In Austin, my salary went down $10k to $120k/yr. My 2 bedroom, 1,100 square foot apartment is $1,150/mo. The tech scene here isn't as vibrant as SF, but there's still plenty of great meet ups. All in all, yes there are some things I…

Sorry if this is off-topic (and maybe a bit personal), but as a recent graduate, I'm not sure what I would do with all that extra money. What do you (or most people) generally spend it on? I make less than that, but if I didn't have student loans, I wouldn't know what to do with it besides leave it in the bank.

Save/invest the money so that one day you won't have to work anymore and can do the things that you would do if you didn't have to make a living.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#262

Post by rconti »

bogomipz wrote: post #89
Gratsby wrote: post #54

I pay about that for rent - it's the most I've ever paid for housing by a long shot, and it regularly freaks me out. I just can't get used to it. The thing that gets me is that I'm barely paying the property taxes on the place I rent. The landlord isn't gouging me. It's just the way it is here. Housing is so expensive because everyone wants to be here, and for good reason. This is the most thriving technical communit…

Really - "This is the most thriving technical community in the entire world"? I'm calling BS. Have you been to New York City recently? Rents for a 1 bedroom are nowhere near that. Lets talk about that community - there are meetups? Wow. You can go to a meetup on any night of the week in New York or Austin. Besides that explain "the community"? Oh you go out and drink craft beers after work? You can do that anywhere.…

Congrats on your meetups.

What we do here is not go to meetups because you don't have to. Another commenter captured it better than I can. It's everywhere. It's just a huge sense of excitement. It's the jobs, the energy.

I don't live in SF, I live on the Peninsula. I don't go to meetups or bars or participate in "the scene". I just live my life, but I'm surrounded by tech and I love it. I first started working in tech in Seattle and moved to the Bay Area a dozen years ago, and I just love it. shrug

If it doesn't work for you, fine, don't live here. I'm quite happy. I find pay scales with costs. For a working-from-an-office job, I'm able to pay the bills and the mortgage and save up faster than I think I could anywhere else. Obviously you can always find an employer and then swing some deal where they let you live in Kansas and keep the same pay and hope you never lose your job, but in terms of the average in-person office jobs, I think it can't be beat.

You hear people outside major tech areas saying things like "man, I could never afford to live there." You know what you never hear people in high cost of living areas say? "Man, I can't afford to get out."

You can always afford to get out, but you might not be able to afford to get back in. I'm not on a Mr Money Moustache plan to retire at age 23, but I think the economics basically work.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#263

Post by rconti »

kbenson wrote: post #259
rconti wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Santa Rosa ? That's, like, Morgan Hill to SF commute levels of craziness.

Yeah, about the same total distance, but I think there's generally less traffic coming from the north. In any case, he just has to make it to Larkspur, as the ferry takes him directly to work. Needless to say, he's eagerly awaiting the SMART train.

Oh, my bad, thought he was crossing the bridge. My BIL goes from Corte Madera to San Bruno and I think it's just eye-poppingly insane to have to cross the bridge AND drive through SF. The traffic north of CM on the way up to Santa Rosa is simply insane, so adding the bridge to that would be killer. The ferry makes it work.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#264

Post by ksenzee »

ebiester wrote: post #195
timr wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a well-governed San Francisco could have positioned itself as the next NYC. The hub where all of tech gathers, the same way all of finance gathered in Wall St. Replace the 70 year old 2-storey homes with Manhattan style apartment buildings, and rent in San Francisco would have remained very reasonable, despite the rapid economic growth. This would have prevented exactly this problem where tech workers are forced to…

I've thought about that, but as far as I can tell, it means about $10-$15k of equipment and a dedicated work room. I need a mobile-connected "smart" whiteboard for every team member, a good microphone, webcam, speakers, a separate computer + monitor devoted to video conferencing, and a team that is geographically dispersed rather than partially-colocated. ...and hopefully, everyone has first class redundant internet,…

The only hard requirements are a good headset and decent Internet. And when I say "decent," I don't mean "fabulous." I worked remote for five years, three time zones away from headquarters, and never even thought of getting a mobile-connected smart whiteboard. It might have been nifty, but it's by no means a requirement.

The main requirement is that everyone communicate over the same channels. No planning sessions at the watercooler. Take it back to your desk and have the conversation in Slack instead.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#265

Post by Gratsby »

bogomipz wrote: post #89
Gratsby wrote: post #54

I pay about that for rent - it's the most I've ever paid for housing by a long shot, and it regularly freaks me out. I just can't get used to it. The thing that gets me is that I'm barely paying the property taxes on the place I rent. The landlord isn't gouging me. It's just the way it is here. Housing is so expensive because everyone wants to be here, and for good reason. This is the most thriving technical communit…

Really - "This is the most thriving technical community in the entire world"? I'm calling BS. Have you been to New York City recently? Rents for a 1 bedroom are nowhere near that. Lets talk about that community - there are meetups? Wow. You can go to a meetup on any night of the week in New York or Austin. Besides that explain "the community"? Oh you go out and drink craft beers after work? You can do that anywhere.…

You quoted just a piece of it.

> This is the most thriving technical community in the entire world. We live different lifestyles as a result. It's not better or worse, just different.

I've been all over, including New York. I didn't appreciate Silicon Valley for what it is until I moved here.

Do you have to pay that kind of money to work in tech? Not at all. You don't even have to pay that kind of money to work in tech in the bay area. There are plenty of commuting options and there are plenty of tech communities all over the US.

What's different? I would counter with What's not different? I've been here a year and I have had conversations with founders of Netflix, Instagram, Uber, GreatSchools, and twenty others that you probably haven't heard of. I also met one of the guys who invented ethernet. I'm not particularly social or particularly important. In southern CA, I was isolated - I had a few friends who really understood what I did for work. Here, most people I meet do. I went to a small conference a few weeks ago and had engineers from Adobe sit with me until I had a working implementation of software that included their CreativeSDK. I have never had that kind of experience at a conference. My elementary school kids have a maker studio at their school where they have 3d printers, programmable robots, sewing machines, and all kinds of other cool things. My middle school kid has photoshop and web design classes as part of her curriculum. They have carts full of laptops, iPads, etc. that they pull into classrooms as needed, and other classrooms that are completely teched out. There are plenty of downsides that go with all the great things. I have to think three times about whether I take my family out for dinner because the cost of eating out is like the cost of housing - it just doesn't make sense to me. There are communities of people nearby who live out of motor homes parked on the street. There are dangerous areas that you have to watch out for. On a given day driving the kids through Golden Gate Park might result in running into a pack of naked bike riders. I have to warn all the out of town visitors about the tenderloin.

It's not better. It's different. Just like NY is different. You can live there for years without needing a car. You can see the best shows with the best artists. I imagine living there you meet all kinds of interesting people. But as far as tech community goes, nothing compares to Silicon Valley.

I choose to pay more in rent because it gives my family access to great schools, it means that I don't lose family time to driving time and it means I can participate in what's going on locally, which is usually pretty awesome. It's a premium, but for me and my family I just wouldn't be able to make it work adding in a big commute. For many people it doesn't make sense.

I could have a bigger house and less financial pressure living just about anywhere else. I made more money outside the bay area. But here I'm with my people and while I used to love my kids' old schools, the ones I have access to now are a world apart. Up until I moved here, I didn't even know there was a community of "my people".

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#266

Post by eastbayjake »

metanoia wrote: post #218
humbleMouse wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you mentioned not being able to get a good meal after 9:30pm. That was the most frustrating thing about being in San Francisco for me. I hated that the whole bay seemed to shut down @10pm - almost as if everybody has to wake up the next morning to work another 12 hour day to pay the insane rent.....

It's because everyone in SF seems to be a morning person. In my building everyone (except me) is asleep by 10pm. In NYC things are only getting started at 10.

... and it's exhuasting to adjust to when business trips take me from SF to NYC. I usually add two hours to whatever normal evening meetup time I'd suggest in SF when I make plans with my NYC friends.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#267

Post by wott »

nostrademons wrote: post #151
TranquilMarmot wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the amount of vitriol in your comment, but I agree with the overall sentiment. I feel like tech workers in San Francisco are fully bought-in to the "this is the best and only place to be if you're in tech" idea. So much so that they can't quite see that the grass is just as green on the other side, so to speak. You have to be fully bought-in to it, there's no other way you would be able to justify…

I'm curious if you've lived in the Bay Area for any length of time. I used to live in Boston (which at the time was the #2 tech scene in the country, but has probably been eclipsed by Seattle/NYC/Austin by now). There were startups and meetups and hacker spaces as well, including a number of famous ones. The Bay Area is a huge difference in degree. The difference is that you had to find the "tech scene" in Boston, wh…

> If you go out for coffee, nearly everybody in the coffeeshop will be working on some tech startup. If you sit down at a restaurant, there's a good chance that the table next to you will have a group of engineers from some large tech company, or an investor being pitched by an entrepreneur, or a group of friends planning a startup. If you go to a random party - even ones thrown by non-techies - half the people there will work in tech.

What you describe is an unbearable nightmare.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#268

Post by richard_mcp »

geebee wrote: post #223
asfakeaccount wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern mid rise and skyscrapers are actually safer in earthquakes than the Victoria homes of San Francisco. If our housing consisted of modern housing our city would suffer way less damages than what will happen today if the big one hits.

The french quarter in new orleans is also probably less safe than modern buildings, but I wouldn't want to see it torn down just because rents would be cheaper. SF does need to build, badly, but I'm wary of the term NIMBY-ism. It is descriptive, but I think it invites false equivalence. There are degrees of NIMBY. I actually think that some of the burbs, like walnut creek or mountain view (especially the latter) have…

I assume you're concerned about floods in New Orleans. The French Quarter is actually pretty safe compared to a lot of other nearby areas. It was build on the old flood plains and so it's on higher ground than a lot of the city and surrounding Parishes.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#269

Post by kough »

pound wrote: post #224
bogomipz wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a good thing if you are a well rounded human being and an engineer. There is no shortage of opportunities for an engineer in NYC - Google, Facebook, Spotify, Twitter, Etsy, Thoughtworks, Pivotal Labs and on and on on. Yes, you can be an engineer and meet people who do other things with their professional lives.

Oh, I wasn't talking about NYC. It was regarding 'tech is the scene' description. Sounds like a hell and I'm an engineer.

I did it for two years; it became my own little personal idea of hell. Never going back.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#270

Post by rconti »

jrjarrett wrote: post #80
leesalminen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boulder as well. A buddy of mine had a hell of a time getting a condo with a mortgage. They were all bought up in cash within a day or 2.

Who are these people and where are they getting that kind of cash?

I have no inside knowledge, but I highly suspect many/most cash offers are not actually cash. It just means the financing is hidden from the seller. Nobody's waiting on approvals, the money is there and it's a done deal. That doesn't mean it's not on some kind of personal loan or some kind of asset-backed line of credit, just not one that's understood by the US real estate process.
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