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Why a city should not build a stadium for an NFL team

reuters.com

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Re: Why a city should not build a stadium for an NFL team

#261
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it exists as a popular sport anyways, it's 5 seconds of action followed by 30 seconds of two guys talking about it. The average football game has 11 minutes of action[1]. Everything but the last ~8 minutes of the 4th quarter is boring. Yet Americans love it. I don't get it. [1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527487042812045750028...

You know what else is boring? Comments of the form "I don't understand something, and my ignorance should be compelling"

> The first layer is the literal meaning of the words: I lack the knowledge and understanding to figure this out. But the second, intended meaning is the opposite: I am such a superior moral being that I cannot even imagine the cognitive errors or moral turpitude that could lead someone to such obviously wrong conclusions. And yet, the third, true meaning is actually more like the first: I lack the empathy, moral imagination or analytical skills to attempt even a basic understanding of the people who disagree with me.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-12/only-stupid...

Re: Why a city should not build a stadium for an NFL team

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're trying to game the system, why try to create a definition for family when one already exists that serves your purpose? Just have your team be owned by the Hominidae family.

Then you'll have bonobos showing up and claiming their percentage.

Well if they do claim it, who are we to deny them?

Re: Why a city should not build a stadium for an NFL team

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have the same problems with taxes. Corporations can play the states against each other in regards to 'bidding' with tax breaks. But I think citizens should do the same there; tax breaks in return for shares. Either way what really has to happen, is for gov't officials to resume responsibility for negotiating for the people instead of for themselves. That said, I make no argument it's a great choice. The public pro…

>Corporations can play the states against each other in regards to 'bidding' with tax breaks. But I think citizens should do the same there; tax breaks in return for shares. The corporations hold all the cards in that negotiation, since they're bringing jobs. Particularly corporations that do non-polluting things like software development and financial services. If a state said "we'll give you a break but we want equ…

The corporations do not hold all the cards in all situations.

Take Austin at the moment, the "It" city that all the Cool Kids are flocking to, the darling of the business press for growth stories. Its population growth rate is faster than many cities much larger than it, by both absolute numbers and percentage growth. It is continuously growing a deeper pool of skilled knowledge worker talent; not nearly enough to rival giants like SV in tech, NYC in finance, BOS in bio, or Shenzen in hardware mfg., but enough to put it firmly on the heat map of "lots of eligible, skilled workers". Compared to those category-leading cities, the cost of housing in equivalent neighborhoods is cheap (though make no mistake, already out of reach of middle class households). There should be no tax concessions from a city in such a hyper-growth situation.

The messaging that "taxpayers have to give corporations a break for the jobs else the corporations take their ball and go elsewhere with the jobs" is a canard. These tax break arrangements last 5+ years, sometimes decades, sometimes effectively in perpetuity with constant re-negotiations the norm as agreements come up to expiration. There is often no, little, or lax monitoring of benefits received for the consideration. I haven't heard of big municipalities negotiating performance bonds, nor breakup fees. Some deals won't even "break even" until long after an agreement expires, so they need an investment horizon where the corporation stays after an expiration for anything to pencil out. Typical financial traders call parties negotiating these kind of terms "chumps" and "muppets" on days they're feeling charitable; NSFW pejoratives are used more often.

Many of these tax break arrangements are thin facades over what are effectively irrationally-expensive political bribes footed by taxpayers for sitting politicians to claim PR points in the political arena, especially for re-election fodder, frequently negotiated under conditions and terms that are effectively between private parties, and in representative systems frequently with little direct access by citizens to vote up or down. On the corporation side of the table, they pay a professional negotiator and get a return in the orders of magnitudes range that drops straight to the bottom line, Other People's Money else pays for the deal, in the vast majority of cases they can lay off and outsource/offshore the ostensible jobs that the jurisdiction was going to benefit from without penalty, or even close up and move away to a better offer before the arrangement is even expired and the jurisdiction even breaks even. It's free money for the corporations, and if taxpayers are foolish enough to sign off (by not voting out or better yet insta-recalling politicians who arrange these deals) on this, the taxpayers only have themselves to blame. Shareholders in the corporations should be upset that these deals suck up finite executive team time; no matter how much is sent to the bottom line, it's a one-shot that doesn't represent the highest and best use of that time, while the same execs spending the time putting in place revenue generators that grow the top line is far more valuable.

There are many (I'd go as far as to say most, and in many specific instances, all) on the corporation side of the negotiating table who do have good intentions and believe the ostensible messaging, but the financial returns history of these deals is so bad that in an open market the deals would have long since been punished with appropriate interest rates for the high risks they bring to the buyers (the taxpayers). I'd say the same about the politicians, as I think most of these deals are a case of a tragic mix of wishful thinking, inexperience with evaluating complex economic policy, cognitive biases, and go-fever combining into a perfect storm to create poor deals.

TL;DR: human nature, yo.

Re: Why a city should not build a stadium for an NFL team

#265
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't explain the popularity, strategy is invisible to the viewer. Chess is not a popular spectator sport.

There's strategy, and in a broadcast (as opposed to attending a live event), there are commentators to explain it to the average viewer. There are also amazingly spectacular plays, which you can appreciate whether or not you understand the strategy. That doesn't explain why it's more popular than, say, basketball, though...

Yeah, I just don't buy it. I don't buy that the typical football fan recognizes adjustments mid-game. I don't buy that they recognize very many different types of defense (probably the blitz and that's it). This minutiae of a game is things that enthusiasts notice but not the typical fan. I think some of the other explanations given, particular in regards to the social aspect, are more likely it.

Re: Why a city should not build a stadium for an NFL team

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it will matter. The NFL doesn't make money - the teams make money.

Not true. Roger Goodell made $44 million in 2013. Kind of shocking you can do that and still be considered a non profit.

Non-profits can still pay their employees & managers well (very well, in this case).

Re: Why a city should not build a stadium for an NFL team

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't fathom how football still exists today as a popular sport Your first three points make sense, but don't lead to this conclusion at all. People are not going to rationally say "football leads to traffic so I'm not going to watch it anymore." Football is entertaining, which is why it has an audience. Whether or not the negatives you outlined above are funded by the gov't is an entirely different matter.

Football is very boring. I used to enjoy it, at least when the Steelers are playing. Then I got into soccer, eventually getting a more expensive cable package to watch the Premier League. Now when I watch football again, I am painfully aware of the time between plays, the incessant commercials, and now the ever increasing number of "official reviews". Seems like every 3rd or 4th play, an official has to leave the fie…

> Football is very boring.

I agree! Why spend time on something that I have no effect on the outcome of? That's why I prefer gaming (especially online, against real other people). (Some people think online gaming is boring. But the fact that I do not understand how someone could possibly think that, is not an argument against their opinion.)

> the action flows pretty constantly

Ah, yes, those gripping 2 hour matchups ending in a score of... 2-1. :P

> Pittsburgh

I like Pittsburgh! I have a couple of good friends who live there.

Re: Why a city should not build a stadium for an NFL team

#269

The Green Bay packers have an interesting approach to this problem, although it requires a fanatical fan base and special ownership provisions, and the fact that the team can't leave Green Bay (without a vote by the shareholders, who are all fans, which will never, ever, happen). When they want to improve their stadium, they issue stock and sell more season tickets. This works because Packers stock cannot be sold or…

Clarification: The corporate structure of the Green Bay Packers is shrouded in a mystery that would make a venture funded Silicon Valley company blush. There are are multiple classes of stock. The later issued ones are indeed basically paper trinkets bought by rabid "cheese heads" so they could claim "ownership". There is apparently no reason the owners of the few voting shares couldn't change the bylaws. Rumor is th…

Don't know about the Packers, but the league definitely intervened with the Giants. One of the Maras sold out to the Tisches, the other one is is still there.

Re: Why a city should not build a stadium for an NFL team

#270
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. There is competition from other geographic areas. If a team can simply play one venue against another they do have the upper hand unfortunately.

We have the same problems with taxes. Corporations can play the states against each other in regards to 'bidding' with tax breaks. But I think citizens should do the same there; tax breaks in return for shares. Either way what really has to happen, is for gov't officials to resume responsibility for negotiating for the people instead of for themselves. That said, I make no argument it's a great choice. The public pro…

> Corporations can play the states against each other in regards to 'bidding' with tax breaks.

I was actually amazed when GE did move their headquarters from CT. Often that's a ploy to just get taxes lowered in place. The people who run economic development play along because then it looks like they actually did something "see they were going to leave but we got them to stay". This happens also at the county level in addition to obviously interstate. (WSJ story below).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

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