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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#261

Post by hugh4 »

nmrm2 wrote: post #242
dclowd9901 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you square that circle for me where you are interested in science, but not science fiction? I'm not talking about science fantasy, but fiction rooted in science and the ramifications of scientific development.

This isn't strange at all. I interact with scientists fairly regularly and very few are fans of science fiction in any sense of the phrase. Most scientists are normal people with an aptitude for a certain discipline, enjoy working on interesting problems, and had the luck of having encountered a mentor or two who steered them toward research. None of the ideas that drive the creation of sci fi are necessary to be a s…

I'm a scientist who doesn't like sci fi much. I don't hate it, I enjoy some of it, but not the genre as a whole. I like Star Wars for the big pew pew spaceships as much as anybody but I don't like Star Trek at all.

To me, a lot of it just comes across as unimaginative. Oh sure, we've travelled half way across the galaxy to meet an alien race and it turns out they're Space Russians, or Space Jews. Maybe Space Ancient Romans for a change.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#262

Post by pervycreeper »

pkinsky wrote: post #255
pervycreeper wrote: post #236

Here is a page linking the writeups of the studies that were referenced in the article. https://faculty.washington.edu/scheryan/research.htm One question which perhaps should be made explicit: Who ought to be responsible for remedying the negative stereotypes that young women hold about computer programmers and STEM workers? And who is affected most negatively by attitudes such as they hold? Maybe creative writing pr…

I don't see any indication that these studies have been successfully reproduced. Do you know if these results have been independently verified?

There are a few hundred citations to sort through, but it looks like they are just building on these conclusions. Keep in mind that they were published very recently, and psychology has less of an emphasis on reproducing studies than, say physics, for instance. IOW, I have no clue. Haven't read the papers either. Looks like a bunch of copy + paste from SPSS/SAS, plus a little polemical rhetoric, like most social science papers. I find such to be tiring to read closely as a consequence (so I don't).

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#263

Post by Lost_BiomedE »

natvod wrote: post #76

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…

Good post. As a male, I have the same issues that you have in your last three paragraphs. I am masculine but do not feel the need or desire to spray alpha maleness constantly. When the pendulum swings back to sales reps having to perform to eat, I think much of that will settle down a bit.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#264

Post by nshepperd »

tptacek wrote: post #136
gaius wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But would anyone write an article saying that potential law students were put off by walls of law books and big mahogany desks?

law books : practice of law != {star wars, jokey t-shirts} : software development.

I thought they were going for this:

{law books, mahogany desks} : practice of law ~= {computer parts, tech magazines} : software development.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#265

Post by gdubs »

One thing I noticed / learned about when we had our child is that we are all social creatures. We yearn to be with others like ourselves and to fit in.

It's an incredibly strong pull, and the attitude of "if they really were interested, they'd be interested" that is prominent here greatly underestimates how strong our desire to fit in is.

In poor neighborhoods, few rise out of their situations to become scholars and professionals. Do we believe it is because they don't want to? Or is it because the social currents -- the pull to fit in, sell drugs, check out, be cool -- are too strong? We have deeply evolved social genes, and our fear of being alienated trumps a lot of things.

Unconscious bias is real. You can take a test and see for yourself. We think we view the sexes, other races, other tribes as we view ourselves. But the fact is we're deeply biased. It is ingrained.

So, we might not be best suited to say whether our tribe is inclusive -- we probably couldn't give an objective answer if we tried. But what we can do is make a better attempt to be more inclusive of ideas; especially the ones that make us uncomfortable.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#266

Post by wutbrodo »

mcguire wrote: post #256
wutbrodo wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, with even a cursory amount of thought (which is far more rigor than proponents of diversity tend to give policy proposals) it's clear that much of the ideas coming out of tech these days caters to the problems of young urban fairly affluent users, which is in large part due to the tendency to want to solve problems that you're familiar with (and to be fair, the fact that it's harder to monetize low income…

As an aside, comments such as "which is far more rigor than proponents of diversity tend to give policy proposals" tend not to make your arguments more persuasive.

Yea it's pretty late in my timezone and I'm typing on a phone, but it did occur to me that that could be misinterpreted.

Contrary to what my overly succinct comment may have suggested, I think that diversity initiatives are critical, both for a society and a company. Companies need to stay vigilant for potential sources of bias in hiring and retention and deal with issues aggressively when identified.

My comment about proponents of diversity wasn't intended to malign everyone who recognizes the importance of diversity initiatives (which as I said, includes myself), but rather, a particular philosophical strain that I've encountered as the dominant force amongst diversity initiatives in the companies I've experienced (including within the "big 4").

What frustrates me specifically is precisely what I mentioned: an often unqualified rejection of rational consideration of facts when they even resemble an unpalatable conclusion. In the example we're talking about: there are less women than men in company X. Either the company is discriminating, women are somehow innately less suited to work there, or there's upstream discrimination so that hiring reflects an equal assessment of the candidate pool. The evidence pointed strongly to the latter situation (ie the proportion of women cs majors was equal to the proportion of women technical employees, and non technical employees broke down 50/50).

And yet, any suggestion that the company wasn't explicitly discriminating (and that the problem existed upstream) was shouted down with "If you think we're not discriminating then you must think women are innately unsuitable and will be reported to HR for creating an unwelcome misogynist work environment"[1].

So when I talk about proponents of diversity lacking rigor, it was shorthand for "IME, in places that are quite reasonably considered the mainstream, the prevailing school of thought with respect to diversity initiatives focuses more on appearances and social signaling than actual progress".

[1] note that I was smart enough to stay out of these conversations so I wasn't ever actually the victim of this sort of lunacy.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#267

Post by [deleted] »

mcguire wrote: post #256
wutbrodo wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, with even a cursory amount of thought (which is far more rigor than proponents of diversity tend to give policy proposals) it's clear that much of the ideas coming out of tech these days caters to the problems of young urban fairly affluent users, which is in large part due to the tendency to want to solve problems that you're familiar with (and to be fair, the fact that it's harder to monetize low income…

As an aside, comments such as "which is far more rigor than proponents of diversity tend to give policy proposals" tend not to make your arguments more persuasive.

[deleted]

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#268

Post by hackuser »

duaneb wrote: post #251

No matter who you are, applying broad strokes to the industry is going to paint many incorrectly. The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. In reality, it is very subjective. I would also have been put off by her experience with pressure to "act like a man" and I'm a man. But, just as anecdotally, I only encountered this once: the cs department o…

> The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false.

There could be a few factors that account for the vast majority.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#269

Post by solofounder2 »

seansmccullough wrote: post #254

The real issue is that our society tells girls it's more important to be attractive and have lots of friends, instead of being smart and intelligent. The posters aren't the problem, the pipeline is, and the pipeline starts with parents.

but then individuals like Amelia Earhart, Jane Goodall, and Maria Mayer (to name a few) come along and inspire a generation of young women. Maybe the problem is that we simply don't have a worldwide recognized women's role model for Tech yet. Hell there are only a handful of male ones.. people like Gates, Jobs & Wozniacki, Zukerberg, Knuth, Kay, Turing, etc.. inventors of programming languages, famous tech authors (W. Richard Stevens, Sussman & Abelson, etc).. they're pretty much all men. I think that eventually this will change.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#270

Post by bduerst »

pkinsky wrote: post #214
hkmurakami wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society has agreed that if any specific subset of the population is being biased against its wishes to pursue a path, then this is an injustice that shall be remedied. Distinctions include but are not limited to race, gender, socioeconomic background or current status, geographic origin, sexual orientation, and preexisting medical conditions. It is an implied social contract that forms the foundation of our moder…

The majority of college students are female. Most prisoners are male. Most homeless people are male. If we take it as a given that any group being under- or overrepresented in some category is a violation of the social contract, maybe we should start by fixing these glaring injustices.

>glaring injustices

Kind of a false dichotomy. The APA has found that men are more likely to become substance abusers, which is linked to homelessness and conviction rates.

Why not help both men and women? Why does one need to be first?

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