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Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

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Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Political dissidents and abuse victims can't safely use Facebook" is the problem we're discussing. I take it your solution is "political dissidents and abuse victims shouldn't be using the internet at all"?

If using your real name gets you in trouble for X reason then what does Facebook have to do with it? Using your real name anywhere would get you in trouble. So then Facebook is obviously not the right place for it if you need strong anonymity. Again, what is the blame on Facebook as if they came in and registered your name and profile by force? Choose wisely for your scenario, that's all I'm saying.

It's weird how you keep restating the problem and acting like you've actually described the solution somehow.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#262
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does seem hard to explain. It's creepy sometimes to wonder just how much they can figure out from how little and where all the information siphons are actually located.

Honestly, I find it both empowering (oh the data I can find if I know where to look) and reassuring. Why reassuring? Because it reminds us that lies can and will be discovered. Some people like to think they'll get away with one but it's only a function of how much someone else cares. But reality is self-consistent and in the Great Web of Causality falsehood is just damage that needs to be routed over. Conversely, ly…

I think things will eventually come around once reputation in life is unavoidably attached to everything they say, though, but it might be messy getting there.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Political dissidents and abuse victims can't safely use Facebook" is the problem we're discussing. I take it your solution is "political dissidents and abuse victims shouldn't be using the internet at all"?

If using your real name gets you in trouble for X reason then what does Facebook have to do with it? Using your real name anywhere would get you in trouble. So then Facebook is obviously not the right place for it if you need strong anonymity. Again, what is the blame on Facebook as if they came in and registered your name and profile by force? Choose wisely for your scenario, that's all I'm saying.

> Again, what is the blame on Facebook as if they came in and registered your name and profile by force?

Pretty sure you're trolling at this point, but if not google "facebook shadow user profile" and get your mind blown.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting downvoted because they jumped from "he was missing out on party invites and facebook conversations" to "he can't maintain friendships and should get new friends". It's a bit extreme of a position.

Well, I don't think he/she said "he can"t maintain friendships". The suggestion was that he needed closer friends. And, I think it's reasonable to question how close his friendships are if they are dependent on Facebook. But, that's probably true of society in general, wherein we seem to be trading quantity for quality where personal relationships are concerned. And the generation coming up now has almost no referenc…

Again, everybody is extrapolating. If I opt out of the communication mechanism all my friends are using, this is going to cause problems, regardless of how close they are.

He didn't join Facebook because he was losing friends, he joined Facebook because of the social friction NOT being on Facebook caused. This is both less coercive and more insidious.

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Still, problematic as it is, that's just bad luck. We can't all live in fear of evil strangers sending death threats to us. There is no way a normal person can reasonably protect themselves from an attack like this targeted personally. I disagree. Protection of yourself is a multi-angle approach. One of the very practical ways to not live in fear of evil strangers is to practice good online anonimity, pseudonymity…

I get it, but I think your examples are not equivalent. I agree that the real-life precautions you mentioned are easy to follow and important. But the equivalent of those on-line would be: not sharing your passwords (especially to bank and e-mail), not posting your home address on public forums, telling your trusted friend you're off-line so if they see any activity from you it means you've been hacked, etc. The real…

Well, on-line space and real-life space are very different. I don't think it's very useful to compare "equivalent" precautions by analogy like that.

The reason for that should be clear enough from the examples you gave. Some types of precautions are much easier, sensible or acceptable to do in one type of space than in the other, or vice versa. Some precautions are clearly ridiculous, or just don't carry the same kind of protection in the other type of space. In real life you also don't need to worry someone downloads a copy of your drink :-)

I didn't pick the examples because they have a clear and useful digital equivalent either. It was to demonstrate some other points: Sometimes we have to take precautions to protect ourselves, even if they inconvenience us, even if they do not protect 100% perfectly. And even if the dangers we try to protect ourselves from are clearly illegal, we still take the precautions because we don't expect the law/police to always be there and protect us before they happen. In fact, for real-life we generally prefer it that way, we don't really want to policeman at every corner, hovering above our every move, we want to be able to take care of ourselves, by ourselves. Because sometimes there is no one else.

I'm arguing that we should aim for a similar way in on-line space. Not by carrying the protections to their literal not-quite-equivalent real-life analogies, that would be silly. But to create a similar way of being able to protect oneself, in an (on-line) socially acceptable manner, without having to rely on the state (or a corporation).

I'm arguing that in on-line space, one of the options for precaution should be the ability to pick pseudonyms. They come much more natural to the on-line world than the real world, because on-line you're not attached to a physical presence. This is an advantage, you can't do it in real-life. It doesn't make sense to carry the analogy over, wearing masks isn't quite the same, plus it's not socially acceptable. There are of course many other on-line precautions to protect yourself against dangers, but we were discussing pseudonyms.

BTW a quick side-note, not directed to you in particular. I find that on HN there is a strong tendency to try and find real-life analogies for all sorts of cyber/digital on-line concepts. Often resulting in discussions that carry a metaphor way too far. "No it's more like trying to tie your shoes while your feet are in a locked safe, but your socks are the key ..." -- eh. My point is, in my experience, such kinds of analogies are only useful when trying to somewhat explain a technical concept to a non-technical person. It's not useful at all as a starting point to reason from, just because the analogy (mostly) holds as far as it's descriptive of the concept, doesn't mean the other properties of the analogy that you can reason from there are in any way predictive of the technical concept by the same line of reasoning. Isn't this called "leaky abstractions" in programming? :-)

Re: Global coalition to Facebook: “Authentic names” are dangerous for your users

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't get is why Facebook's users don't just disengage. Instead, Facebook is treated as some basic human right. Here, with some vague "responsibilities akin to a utility, but not quite that far". I mean, that really sounds kind of, well, made up. Who's defining these responsibilities? In fact, Facebook is not a public utility, but a private company. And, unlike with a public utility, the public to which they a…

"You can choose to keep in touch with your circle of friends, get invites to their parties, and so forth; or you can choose to remain concealed from your violent ex-boyfriend. Pick one." That's kind of a douchey thing to do to people, even if you're a private company.

I'm seeing this really late, but FWIW:

I'm no FB fan but, here, FB is not "doing" anything to anyone. They offer a service, and a social one at that. If people choose to use it to keep in touch with their entire social circle, then why is FB responsible for ensuring that no one has a violent ex-boyfriend, nosy boss, etc.?

If using FB will endanger your health, then don't use it. That's the missing option in your choice set.

BTW, this is what happens when people outsource their relationships to a profiteering third-party. No one seems to question the wisdom of that "choice". Instead they want to force FB to be something it never was or claimed to be.

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