Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

harvardlawreview.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 326 posts

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#251

Post by drblast »

ctdonath wrote: post #115
lars wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drug war is part of it. But the big thing to fix is income inequality. High income inequality is correlated with higher homicide rate, higher robbery rate, lower civic participation, higher mortality, lower social cohesion and lower well-being in children. So many social problems are strongly predicted by this variable, yet many refuse to consider inequality to be a problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_…

Many consider inequality a symptom/consequence of one's own chosen behavior, not a cause. (ETA "chosen behavior" clause.)

I've never been poor in the terminal sense, but there was a time when I had no money. I wasn't desperate, and I was beginning a career with a lot of promise, but I was also too proud to ask for help from friends or family.

During that time my car broke down, and it would cost $3000 to fix it. This was money I didn't have. The car was otherwise reliable, so overall it would have been a good financial decision to fix the car that would have provided me with more than $3000 worth of transportation amortized over its future useful life.

But that didn't matter, I couldn't afford to fix it.

I did need a car though, or I couldn't get to work. What I could afford was to take out a loan to buy a used car, even though that used car was not as reliable as my previous car and cost more than $3000.

I ended up getting the used car. My decision to do that was based on my need to get to work and keep my job. It was the right decision, but had I had an extra $3000 in cash, the right decision would have been to fix my otherwise reliable car.

People without extra cash are constantly one misfortune away from a downward spiral.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#252

Post by analyst74 »

lsniddy wrote: post #198
CPLX wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes these things happen. They should not happen. But they happen in most counties --even homogenous countries. What homogenous countries with a comparable level of economic wealth have situations that even remotely resemble our mass incarceration and drug war policies?

China is a good example, though they incarcerate less and execute more

If you do drugs in China, how much you get punishment depends on your skin color and citizenship.

If you are Chinese, you are fucked, with the exception of powerful bureaucrat maybe; but if you are foreigner, you generally get off free, maybe a policeman will give you a stern speech about not breaking law again.

One thing I find funny though, is despite the war on drugs, average Americans, rich or poor, are still doing them, giving police more bodies to send to jail.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#253

Post by beat »

darkroasted wrote: post #239
beat wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This problem, applied racially, leads to an uncomfortable question. If black communities are less effective than white communities at "self-policing", why is that? Is it because of externally imposed social structure issues (the consequences of racism), or is it because of internal nature (blacks are less intelligent and moral than whites)? You have to start with this raw, painful question. Either you argue for racia…

Why is that? Is it because of externally imposed social structure issues (the consequences of racism), or is it because of internal nature (blacks are less intelligent and moral than whites)? Hypothesis #1: Blacks are the pawns in an ongoing civil war between the Red Tribe and the Blue Tribe of American whites. The blue tribe, the left, talks a big game about helping black people, but if you look at what they do, the…

Never evolved an indigenous culture? You've heard rap music, haven't you? Of course it's an indigenous culture... one that the mainstream cultures of the "blue and red tribes" finds alienating and strange. The indigenous culture of the African-American community has, among other things, created the basis of American music for over a century.

To argue that what culture they have is simply handed to them by the "blue tribe" liberals is shockingly ignorant and condescending. Seriously, man, check your privilege there!

Where I think you're on to something interesting is the idea of racial flight. Before the 1960s, blacks simply were not allowed to live in white neighborhoods, no matter how wealthy or successful or talented they were. Black neighborhoods were much more economically integrated, with more role models for kids (although a look into the history of redlining is valuable, something else you touched on. The theft of wealth accumulation via property values and rent is far greater than the petty crimes of burglary and mugging that justify the police state. Look into it, there's been great writing on the subject).

Anyway... come the 1970s, it became socially viable for more successful black professionals and entrepreneurs to move to nicer, safer, more valuable white neighborhoods, and they did so. The more they left, the worse the ghettos got, which drove even more away. This went hand in hand with the rise of the lucrative paramilitary police state, and a massive per-capita increase in black prisoners. So it's much, much more difficult for ambitious and talented young black kids to improve their lot in life today than it used to be - ironic, considering how much better life is for the black middle class.

There are other problems as well. A friend of mine, a successful upper middle class black professional (doctor), has devoted himself to teaching financial literacy to black teenagers. Lack of basic financial literacy is endemic among the poor, and contributes to the ongoing poverty. It's also endemic among black entrepreneurs. He is also working on a side business as a financial advisor and investment counselor for wealthy black individuals. They often invest very poorly, because they distrust the white-dominated financial industry - and for good reason, given the century-long tradition of outright theft and victimization. By putting a black face on sound investing, he can help them grow their wealth more effectively. So think about the impact that deliberate bad financial advice has had economically on the black community.

Your formulation of blue tribe welfare-for-votes versus red tribe police state is entertaining to read, but it is simplistic to the point of being seriously wrong. Look at the deeper issues.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#254

Post by beat »

CPLX wrote: post #244
beat wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But again, look at the high profile shootings recently. The cops weren't looking for drugs. In all of those cases, they were stopped for basic harassment. The nice car isn't a reason to pull over the doctor. It's an excuse.

I think you're saying this is not about drugs. That's correct. That's a distinct statement from saying it's not about the war on drugs. It's definitely about that.

To push it farther, I'm saying the war on drugs is a symptom, not a cause - it's rooted in racism. So it's not about drugs... it's about race.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#255

Post by prawn »

millermp12 wrote: post #134
moomin wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the City of Ferguson's finances relied on the regular fining of its poorest citizens. Basically backdoor taxation.

Not unlike the lottery, which the poor regularly spent their meager pittance on. Taxation of the poor as Lincoln noted. So can be ban lotteries (and casinos, too) unless participants demonstrate they can afford the losses?

It'd be funny and practical if money invested in lotteries never resulted in a large win but was later returned to the participant - like a surprise investment scheme.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#256

Post by quicksnap »

This article was a great read; it made me feel awful.

> ... we’re starting to have symposia in which people talk about whether everything will be better if we give police more money to buy cameras for their lapels.

This was my mindset--that with more accountability, police will shape up. However, this article highlighted this solution as a symptomatic treatment.

I wonder how we could help address this major problem technologically?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#257

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

CPLX wrote: post #168
millermp12 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no drug war in the Congo, or Nigeria, Liberia, or Ethiopia. These are places, though, that most people, if they had their druthers, prefer to leave. So of course, end the drug war. But the elephant in the room doesn't go away if you ignore it harder. Eppur si muove.

By "elephant in the room" you mean "black people" right? If you're going to be racist might as well own it. You were doing a better job of that in some of your other racist comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8970505 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8472737 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468011 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468451

Thanks for the effort, some of those definitely cross the line. However, I disagree that staying silent is always the best way to handle this - there is an audience that can still be influenced by convincing arguments, even though they might remain invisible.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#258

Post by netfire »

beat wrote: post #245
netfire wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may not tell them that directly, but when you consider someone's race in giving aid, aren't you telling them that they are disadvantaged because of their race? We should be focusing on helping someone because they are poor, because they are unjustly treated like criminals or because they have few opportunities to succeed, not because they are black or of a certain race.

But the aid isn't itself racial. That's a myth. Have you ever had to apply for any sort of public assistance? The process is tremendously slow, complex, and bureaucratic, driven largely by layers of demands for proof that the aid is actually necessary. The basic takeaway of this process for the person in need isn't feeling like a victim, but rather feeling like society assumes you're a lazy thief.

You say its a myth, but then don't provide not explanation as to why. I guess I don't understand how race-restricted aid isn't racial. By restricting assistance, scholarships and other aid to a particular race aren't you in essence saying that you care more about helping people of a certain race than you do about helping people of other races?

If a person is in the same circumstances, economic or otherwise, as another person, why should I only give aid to one of those people based on their race? How would restricting a scholarship to white students be less racist than restricting a scholarship to african-american students?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#259

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

CPLX wrote: post #215
rmxt wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the reminder. I genuinely am not trying to suffocate discourse and I am interested in engaging in conversation, but I have no qualms about pointing out disingenuous or deceptive pseudo-discourse when I see it. Posting a link to a study that mentions testosterone in a different medical context, and using it to justify to racist institutions is, IMO, inflammatory and dishonest to say the least.

It's actually easier not to engage with racist trolls[0] at all, you're not likely to change anyone's mind. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9576895

Thanks for the effort of listing those, some of them definitely cross the line. However, I disagree that staying silent is always the best way to handle this - there is an audience that can still be influenced by convincing arguments, even though they might remain invisible.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#260

Post by darkroasted »

beat wrote: post #195
ams6110 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

I used to think the drug war was the problem. Not anymore. Think about the high-profile police shootings of unarmed black men over the past year. Not a single one of those was over drugs. They were all "walking while black". Ending the drug war would not, on its own, end the "walking while black" problem. The family structure breakdown among the poor is directly, painfully correlated to the high incarceration rate. A…

"The family structure breakdown among the poor is directly, painfully correlated to the high incarceration rate. Absent fathers are absent because they're in jail, or expect they will be sooner or later, or because they're ashamed because they are unable to provide for their children."

The Moynihan report decrying the break down of black families was released in 1965, before the drug war, at a time when incarceration per crime committed was approaching all-time lows.

The incarceration rates in America bottomed out around 1973. At that time, about 63% of black and poor persons lived in a single-female headed household. By 1978, with incarceration rates still within their historical range, the rate was nearly 70% (source Losing Ground by Charles Murray). Family structure breakdown came first, it was not caused by incarceration. It is wishful thinking to believe that if all these men were not locked up they would be upstanding and faithful fathers, the problems go far beyond that.

Post reply on HN