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CoreCLR is now open source

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Re: CoreCLR is now open source

#251

Post by mdaniel »

wtetzner wrote: post #82
mdaniel wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, it's the "open" part and less the "source" part. I believe a lot of projects were reluctant to jump on the Mono train because they expected it would be steamrolled (on purpose or just through sheer manpower) by the .NET. However, if everyone is building on top of the same CoreCLR, it's possible that fear might subside. I doubt it will ever go away because Microsoft will continue to keep some APIs close to the v…

I think this is what you're looking for: http://www.ikvm.net/ In particular: http://sourceforge.net/p/ikvm/wiki/Ikvmc/

I had heard of such projects back in the day, but didn't know if they were still in service (and I didn't take the time to research it). I had some skepticism about whether IKVM had kept up with the rapid moving target that is the JRE, but after seeing that it runs Minecraft[0], I'm guessing it'll likely be alright :-)

But holy shit, who in their right mind still uses CVS?!

0 = http://weblog.ikvm.net/default.aspx?date=2014-12-01

Re: CoreCLR is now open source

#252

Post by yellowapple »

zanny wrote: post #221
yellowapple wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oracle Er, no. The entirety of Oracle's dabbling in "open source" has been by shaking free software products out of the rotting carcass of Sun Microsystems and - in many cases - adding those products to the grave (see also: OpenSolaris, OpenOffice, various others). The exceptions - namely MySQL (which wasn't a Sun product) and Java (which is still doing reasonably well) - are few and far between. Oracle Linux certa…

MySQL got worked into MariaDB. Don't think many people are recommending you use the Oracle version much anymore. And Oracle Java has also died on every platform that is not Windows. OpenJDK took over the Unix space, and Google has Dalvik and the ART implementing the JRE. Virtualbox still exists. I guess. It has not done anything in about half a decade, though.

I listed MySQL as an "exception" because of it not being a Sun product, regardless of whether or not it's dead.

However, there are still plenty of environments using MySQL (and I'd know; I maintain quite a few such environments). MariaDB is an obvious migration path, of course.

Re: CoreCLR is now open source

#253

Post by davorb »

fsloth wrote: post #241
jsprogrammer wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't see why everything needs to be open source. I think this goes back to one of the core tenets of free and/or open source software: the user should be able to know, control, and modify exactly what their machine is doing. If the source is not available you're just running a black box and praying that it will do what the person who gave it to you claims it will do.

"If the source is not available you're just running a black box and praying that it will do what the person who gave it to you claims it will do." I'm sorry to point out to you but a large set of computing devices are black boxes and it does not hurt their marketability. Cars, phones (the OS running the hardware, not Android), ... the pilot in the passenger plane does not want to hack his planes OS, nor most likely d…

> I'm sorry to point out to you but a large set of computing devices are black boxes and it does not hurt their marketability.

Free software should be looked on from the point of ethics, and not from financial gain. Proprietary software is immoral, and that is the reason you shouldn't be building it.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....

Re: CoreCLR is now open source

#255

Post by m_st »

fsloth wrote: post #65

De-Ballmerization and Microsoft is oozing delicious developer love. What the hell happened. It's like Skeletor became He-Mans best buddy all of a sudden and started helping everyone. I'm thrilled. The MS tooling is really, really good and the only thing stopping me from committing to the stack fully has been it's lack of open sourceness (vendor lock in is still feasible but getting less of an issue). Edit: Pardon the…

May I ask you what your 'particular domain' is? I'm interested in F# but due to lack of a real use case for me I didn't yet start investigating.

Re: CoreCLR is now open source

#256

Post by pikachu_is_cool »

davorb wrote: post #253
fsloth wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If the source is not available you're just running a black box and praying that it will do what the person who gave it to you claims it will do." I'm sorry to point out to you but a large set of computing devices are black boxes and it does not hurt their marketability. Cars, phones (the OS running the hardware, not Android), ... the pilot in the passenger plane does not want to hack his planes OS, nor most likely d…

> I'm sorry to point out to you but a large set of computing devices are black boxes and it does not hurt their marketability. Free software should be looked on from the point of ethics, and not from financial gain. Proprietary software is immoral, and that is the reason you shouldn't be building it. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....

I have definitely had my Stallman phase, but after seeing some Free As In Freedom™ projects fail spectacularly, I've realized that there are in fact benefits to keeping some things out of the public eye (from a moral point of view).

Re: CoreCLR is now open source

#257

Post by sourc3 »

Nelkins wrote: post #48

I would be curious to see the effects of completely open-sourcing Windows. Businesses would continue to use it, because it's Microsoft and they want enterprise support. I think it would get even more love than it already does from the development community. Piracy of Windows is already rampant, so they're not really in a worse position from that (plus I think that most people who can pay for Windows do so already). F…

Nadella has worked on the cloud computing at Microsoft. Microsoft is betting big time on the cloud. Although MS never publicly admits, the OS business for the end user is slowly fading away with the tablets, smart phones taking over and Browser becoming the new OS.

You can see this by looking at their Office 365 strategy (iOS, Android release, online version push). Making Windows 10 free to 8 users, removing licensing fees for windows phones, making Visual Studio available for free. Making the ASP.NET vNext to run on Linux.

Instead, MS sees the growth in Azure. Whether they use Linux or Windows servers, MS can make money off of the enterprise/startup segment. Whether or not it is a sustainable strategy in the long run, we will see. But in the short term, at least for the "consumer" market, MS is giving up on Windows and it is moving its focus to Azure and the software that runs on top of Azure (Office, Sharepoint, Dev Services, XBox, Bing, etc).

The marketing strategy behind this is also interesting. Things are still labeled "Windows" to give the illusion that the "Windows" the end user gets on their new laptop is somehow "related" to the Windows in the cloud (Azure). Interesting strategy to make the "Windows" brand live for a little more at least..

Re: CoreCLR is now open source

#258

Post by fsloth »

m_st wrote: post #255
fsloth wrote: post #65

De-Ballmerization and Microsoft is oozing delicious developer love. What the hell happened. It's like Skeletor became He-Mans best buddy all of a sudden and started helping everyone. I'm thrilled. The MS tooling is really, really good and the only thing stopping me from committing to the stack fully has been it's lack of open sourceness (vendor lock in is still feasible but getting less of an issue). Edit: Pardon the…

May I ask you what your 'particular domain' is? I'm interested in F# but due to lack of a real use case for me I didn't yet start investigating.

In this instance: Desktop, graphics. This from a hobby point of view, though! Which means I have very little time to achieve anything and occasionally don't touch the code in weeks. I've come to write code that is a) trifty b) readable c) works on compile d) leverages type system for composable code that has a specific "correct" way to do things.

So I can return to my code, which I've completely forgotten how it works, see that it compiles, read it through, and continue working. Noticeably: I do not need to care about the tooling because it just works. I don't get a shiteload of weird exceptions when I run my code (looking at you, Clojure - yes, I'm a noob) and since the Pythonic and mutable nature of F# allows me to write code in the way I enjoy the most it feels like a glove. There are a few oddities occasionally and some bits are a bit more verbose than in other languages (Clojures collections spoil any other language) but the overall experience is that I can focus only on my code. For me, it's a pain free computational substrate, and free as in beer now that Visual Studio community edition is out.

My progress is really slow but always worthwhile.

If you are interested I found Jon Harrops "Visual F# 2010 for Technical Computing" really good practical introduction, Don Syme et. alls "Expert F#" a good reference book on writing general stuff in the .Net ecosystem with F#, Petricek's "Real-World Functional Programming" a very good introduction to various application patterns and Sestoft's "Programming Language Concepts" a great book and online reference on writing interpreters and compilers (http://www.itu.dk/people/sestoft/plc/).

*At work I use C++ on MS stack.

Re: CoreCLR is now open source

#259

Post by dennyferra »

Delmania wrote: post #44
Raphael wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could/Does Visual Studio run in Linux?

I'm not sure they will migrate Visual Studio. First they'd need to move WPF, which is implemented in DirectX. Second, Visual Studio and MSDN are still profitable. Third, there's the Omnisharp project that;s working on providing support for the more common IDEs on linux. In fact, there's nothing stopping people from making Eclipse and IntelliJ plugins.

A few weeks back I asked Scott Gu if there were any plans for Visual Studio on OSX/Linux and the answer was no. He mentioned they're focusing on Visual Studio Online, though I don't know if that means some sort of online IDE.

Re: CoreCLR is now open source

#260

Post by Sanddancer »

zanny wrote: post #220
jussij wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect for the average Windows user they don't care what their machine is doing. They just want it to work. That black box model has been with Windows from day one and it hasn't stopped Windows owning 90% of the PC market.

Wanting your machine to work is also caring what your machine is doing. I'm sure the IRS is kicking themselves for running XP for over a decade, building up such an extreme dependency on it that they are now paying huge sums of money for Microsoft to continue to support them. The black box is only great so long as it actually works, and when it breaks you are completely screwed. It is in Microsofts business interests…

The number floated around for XP continued support is $200 per machine per year. Redhat, which is one of the few companies that supports a Linux distro for as long as Microsoft supports their products, charges $49/year for the equivalent of Windows Update, and doesn't have any information whatsoever on extended support. So, for the average customer which wants their desktops to have the same lifespan as XP in order to minimize training and other associated costs, ending up with a year or two of Extended Support while you finish your transition is still cheaper than any of the Linux providers.
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