The Human Toll of Flashbangs • Hacker News Board

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#251

Post by antimagic » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 3:03 PM UTC

exprL wrote: post #231

bmelton wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that you're mistaken on what semi-automatic means. Basically all of the rifles likely to be carried by law enforcement are semi-automatic, except for sharp-shooters, who my carry a single-shot with a floated barrel. Semi-automatic is not automatic, and has no burst or rapid-fire mechanisms. All semi-automatic rifles shoot one bullet for each pull of the trigger, and in 2015, that's the norm for just about e…

The comment I responded to said that in addition to law enforcement, it's common for soldiers to patrol the streets, too, at times. If I had to guess, I'd say they would prefer using the weapons they are accustomed to, which are probably not the same that LEO's use. Now I don't know much about the French military, but where I come from, I doubt the military even has appreciable amounts of semi-automatic rifles, as ev…

Just for clarification's sake, the rifles in question carried by the French army are almost certainly automatic-capable, but like most military organisations around the world, I would expect them to be configured in semi-automatic mode, as you will run through a full clip of ammunition in two short bursts if you're in automatic mode, and that will mostly be a waste of ammunition, unless you find yourself confronted with a massed charge. It would be difficult to believe that they weren't configured in semi-automatic mode in a friendly-territory urban setting!

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#252

Post by Retric » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

dalke wrote: post #230

Retric wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, that was less clear, the same thing that hurts bay area Developers are just as relevant in other areas. Sure, the bay area is a very expensive area, but so are NY and DC which also have lots of software developers. Police are paid more in high cost of living areas, but they are also far more widespread spread. Consider Virginia: Northern Virginia has higher cost of living and a disproportionate share of develo…

All of what you are saying is true, but it's on a different track. I was addressing what I thought and still think were incorrect statements by Spooky23. I did not restrict myself to state-wide numbers. I also listed information about the metropolitan regions with the highest officer, first-line management of officers, and software developer salaries. I am unsure as to what your point is. Should I have included cost-…

Under my earlier numbers, I estimated a software developer salary of $93,486, which is about 20% higher than the officer salary of $77,683. With access to the same pension savings fund, doesn't that make the two salaries roughly equivalent, and give the software developer a chance to retire after 20 years?

IMO that's really the point. A police officers base salary is significantly lower than a software developers base salary. Add in pensions and there reasonably close. Add in Overtime and the officers may in some cases make more. Granted, a tiny fraction of software developers end up making far higher salarys, but the total/hour worked gap is not exacly all that huge.

PS: Of course some developers also make tiny salary's.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#253

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 4:26 PM UTC

amirmc wrote: post #224

TeMPOraL wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, tinco is right about officer safety. You really want those "men with gun and right to use deadly force" to feel safe, so that they don't exercise their killing license prematurely. When the officers feel safe and thus sure of themselves, they're more likely to follow proper procedures instead of being afraid of their own safety. I'm not saying that you should give them armoured troop carriers though. You want the…

I find it ridiculous that anyone worries about officer safety in this way. It seems almost perverse to me. If we're worried about officers prematurely killing people how does giving them military-style tools make that any better? If they were going to prematurely kill people before, they're still going to do it. The definition of 'safe' simply moves to a new place. If the OP demonstrates anything, it's that if you gi…

> Edit: Taking some words from your comment, I guess what I'm arguing is that law enforcement is already pretty invincible.

Fair enough. What I'm arguing is just that LE officers are humans too and they both need and deserve to feel safe in their job, which involves risking their own lives for the safety of the public. But I definitely don't think that they need to go full-military for that. They indeed are pretty safe already.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#254

Post by mc32 » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 4:39 PM UTC

cmdkeen wrote: post #249

base2 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can remember the proper name for them but it's along the line of Armed Emergency Response Teams. Watching tapes and a short training exercise the amount of trigger discipline and weapons handling is amazing.

Armed Response Vehicles (ARVs) are the mainstay of British armed policing, outside of London they are pretty rare and often fall back to traffic policing duties. The qualfiied officers are Authorised Firearms Officers who will also stand up the equivalent of SWAT teams as needed for each constabulary. London has Specialist Firearms Officers as well who are a standing set of SWAT type teams. Several have written some…

I think I helps when the odds are low that suspects will be carrying firearms. In north America the odds are much higher that police will have a confrontation with armed suspects --and of course NaM police have greater legal protection when discharging a weapon.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#255

Post by ecdavis » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

base2 wrote: post #242

ecdavis wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the reasoning behind the action, but it's still not justifiable. Following that same reasoning we can argue that police should approach car windows with their weapons drawn and aimed. After all, if an officer approaches a car window and sees the occupant has a gun aimed at them they won't have time to defend themselves if their sidearm is holstered. Officers have certainly been killed by vehicle occupant…

Having your weapon drawn right from the get go is not a good thing. It tends to make calm people nervous. As far as getting out of the vehicle most police don't like surprises so if things go step by step according to the person with the gun things go much better. If you stay in the car you have a much easier time dealing with a person who can't easily get into your personal space and limiting the options you have to…

I understand the reasoning and this is why I'm saying it's an issue with culture, not with police carrying guns.

> As far as getting out of the vehicle most police don't like surprises so if things go step by step according to the person with the gun things go much better.

In Australia I can get out of the car and go talk to the officer and everything's fine.

In the US I can't - I accept that reality.

Both officers are carrying guns, though.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#256

Post by briandear » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #186

briandear wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Any evidence to back that up?

You must be living under a rock to not have read one of the bazillion of stories about policing and racism that have come up since last fall, but for a great overview of the subject I highly recommend The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness [1] [1] www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595586431/

We're talking about SWAT team raids. I am interested if the rate of raids is higher for a specific race compared to other types of arrests.

Also to be intellectually honest in the subject, one can't use media coverage as a proxy for actual data. Lots of anecdotes doesn't necessarily provide evidence. There are thousands of arrests daily. I haven't seen thousands of news stories -- generally only when there was an angle that would elicit ratings. A white man getting shot by the cops doesn't generally make national headlines just like the over 2000 shootings of (mostly) black victims in Chicago barely warrants mention.

My point isn't to argue if cops are racist. My point is that knee-jerk claims of racism ought to be quantifiable.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#257

Post by dalke » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:41 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #252

dalke wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of what you are saying is true, but it's on a different track. I was addressing what I thought and still think were incorrect statements by Spooky23. I did not restrict myself to state-wide numbers. I also listed information about the metropolitan regions with the highest officer, first-line management of officers, and software developer salaries. I am unsure as to what your point is. Should I have included cost-…

Under my earlier numbers, I estimated a software developer salary of $93,486, which is about 20% higher than the officer salary of $77,683. With access to the same pension savings fund, doesn't that make the two salaries roughly equivalent, and give the software developer a chance to retire after 20 years? IMO that's really the point. A police officers base salary is significantly lower than a software developers bas…

The original point was that a police officer get paid "crazy money." Without a segue into your new point I didn't recognize that you were starting a new conversation.

How many software developers retire as software developers? How many police officers retire as a first line supervisor or higher?

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#258

Post by 0xDOOD » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 6:45 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #221

0xDOOD wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, unless you're over 60, you probably don't know how it looks, you only know what you've been told, or what you've led yourself to believe.

You should go and read some history books, assuming you're able to read and comprehend them. The DDR aka East Germany ended in the 90s, and the Franco regime in Spain ended 1975 with Francos death. It is debatable if one should also count the Yugoslavian/Serbian government which existed until the mid-90s as oppressive - I certainly do, Miloševic rot in pieces. Oh, I almost forgot the rest of the Soviet block... so yo…

Well, yes.

But typically, the sort of people who blithely compare the US to a police state do so by invoking the Nazis. I wasn't going to credit such arguments with that much subtlety or self-awareness, since they seem to come from a sense of prejudice and knowledge of pop culture rather than history. Although you're right - there are a number of recent police states and dictatorships which the US does not resemble.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#259

Post by sitkack » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 8:12 AM UTC

wl wrote: post #190

sitkack wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And policy is not law. We should not allow a shield of false legitimacy protect illegal actions.

The problem is that the law often isn't clear. You have assault, battery, manslaughter, murder, unlawful detainment, and similar laws on the books, all with varying requirements and all with various carveouts for law enforcement, self-defense, etc. They tend to be written in broad language because real life is complicated. In the end, the law in this area is generally in the form of case law created by courts in resp…

Which is why the cases in which the police harm or injure people should be brought before the court. Not decided by a prosecutor or grand jury, those entities shouldn't be deciding what is lawful.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#260

Post by Retric » Fri, Jan 16, 2015, 3:38 PM UTC

dalke wrote: post #257

Retric wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under my earlier numbers, I estimated a software developer salary of $93,486, which is about 20% higher than the officer salary of $77,683. With access to the same pension savings fund, doesn't that make the two salaries roughly equivalent, and give the software developer a chance to retire after 20 years? IMO that's really the point. A police officers base salary is significantly lower than a software developers bas…

The original point was that a police officer get paid "crazy money." Without a segue into your new point I didn't recognize that you were starting a new conversation. How many software developers retire as software developers? How many police officers retire as a first line supervisor or higher?

That's a really interesting question; I know plenty of developers that move on to making less money. Either though Developer -> (part time) Developer, Developer -> Teacher or in one case Developer -> Raft Guide. But, I don't really know what happens as an industry.

However, I seems like a lot of officers retire early and either just retire or take a side job with higher pay and little benefits or just something to pass the time.

Honestly, I have no idea what the average is, but there are probably some interesting trends.