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Urbit: a personal cloud computer

doc.urbit.org

251–260 of 281 posts

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#251
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - although actually achieving this result in practice (and efficiently) takes a lot of doing right.

Thanks. How close are you to achieving that?

Nock works perfectly, of course, but it's poorly optimized. The various "jets" (optimized implementations) in our runtime haven't been adequately tested and there are probably a few corner cases, errors, etc, where the behavior doesn't match. Even the new Nock runtime (I just rewrote more or less the whole interpreter) is probably a little too bound to Urbit specifically.

But the system has been self-hosting for quite some time, and there's certainly no doubt that the general approach works...

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#252
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stepping away from the Algol keyword tradition is obviously a risk. At the same time, after using a keyword-free syntax for a while, reserved words feel really weird. Someone just emailed and pointed out that he couldn't check out Urbit on Windows, because it has a file con.c. Oh, right, reserved filenames. How are reserved words different? The difference is - you're used to them. Also, perceived usability (while it…

> it also comes with a vocalization model that makes it easy to say out loud. > For instance, "=+", which more or less declares a variable, is "tislus." A lot of things like "=+" also start with "=", ie, "tis." You wind up learning about a hundred of these digraphs or "runes," which is a lot less than, say, Chinese. Uh... you realize this isn't helping to convince anyone? The project may well be brilliant rather than…

Don't worry - the test of a system is what it can do. If we were ready to show you what it can do, we'd have released it intentionally instead of unintentionally.

It's very difficult for a language, good or bad, to compete on its own merits or even demerits. C is a better language than Pascal, but people didn't start programming in C because of that - they started programming in C because the native language of Unix was C, and they wanted to program in Unix. Why did they want to program in Unix? Because, relative to its competitors in the minicomputer OS market, Unix was a better way to solve their problems. This is the normal way that new languages achieve adoption - they ride on the back of a new platform, which rides on the back of new solutions to (typically) new problems.

Today you see a lot of apps like Buffer and Slack, which are very successful in terms of userbase and even revenue. From a certain perspective, the value these apps are adding is very minimal - Buffer is... what, cron? And yet, there is a considerable distance between an AWS box in the cloud and a Buffer instance. A lot of value actually is being added.

Most of the code in a product of this type is actually the (usually somewhat) general framework that sits between the Linux ABI and the application logic/UI. Essentially there's a type of Greenspun's Law in play. If you build a layer like this, but as a true operating environment rather than an internal framework, the result is a VM in which the distance from a virgin instance to many of these kinds of apps is much smaller. In a familiar Valley pattern, they then become commoditized and have more trouble extracting rents.

If it's possible to provide this kind of value, which we certainly haven't yet demonstrated, I can assure you quite confidently that a flashcard or two is not an obstacle. I'm in my 40s, so I know how hard it is for a middle-aged dog to learn new tricks. But it's not that hard.

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#253
post #169
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, some projects can be too ambitious, including even recklessly or dangerously ambitious. But I'd rather hear that judgement from someone with a reputation for appropriate, successful ambitiousness, and with some supporting reasoning. The grandparent comment comes from a pseudonym linked to no evaluable projects. It offers a costless, totally-generic pooh-poohing of a real project as "too ambitious". But that proje…

> But that project is actually shipping code that works I get that this is more than just vaporware, but getting past the vaporware stage doesn't necessarily prove that something isn't too ambitious. When something is attempting to enact a paradigm shift, the final goal is adoption/usage, not just a working/functional product.

+1 - I can't emphasize this too strongly.

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#254
post #169
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, some projects can be too ambitious, including even recklessly or dangerously ambitious. But I'd rather hear that judgement from someone with a reputation for appropriate, successful ambitiousness, and with some supporting reasoning. The grandparent comment comes from a pseudonym linked to no evaluable projects. It offers a costless, totally-generic pooh-poohing of a real project as "too ambitious". But that proje…

> But that project is actually shipping code that works I get that this is more than just vaporware, but getting past the vaporware stage doesn't necessarily prove that something isn't too ambitious. When something is attempting to enact a paradigm shift, the final goal is adoption/usage, not just a working/functional product.

+1 - I can't emphasize this too strongly.

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#255
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, it always surprises me that people are willing to randomly run other peoples' C code! It's really quite plausible that I'm just out to steal your Bitcoin wallet. The above are all data structures - not even functions. So we say "a pimp" or "a marl" or whatever. For precision, we might say "slam a gate on a pimp," but everyone will understand you when you say "call a function on a pimp." Then, we refer to the…

What did you feel when you wrote "slam a gate on a pimp" just now?

That I was keeping my p - never mind.

It's amazing how quickly words you know lose their meanings, or rather acquire new and distinct ones, in a functional context. When the iPad was released, I remember distinctly the number of people who thought the name was funny, because it reminded them of a female hygiene product. It reminded me of a female hygiene product. But it doesn't anymore...

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#256
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So "you really want your data model to be acyclic" means, "you want your programming language to forbid construction of cyclic data structures"? So, for example, connected graphs are not objects you can represent?

you can, but they become a special second-class type of reference separate from ownership.

They do - but arguably being forced to define the distinction between direct hierarchical references, and symbolic links, helps constrain your data model and make it more rigorous.

Note that relational databases don't have back pointers either. All references between tables are symbolic. Last century, people tried to make databases that were general pointer graphs (google "network database" or "object database") - broadly speaking, it was a disaster.

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#257
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So "you really want your data model to be acyclic" means, "you want your programming language to forbid construction of cyclic data structures"? So, for example, connected graphs are not objects you can represent?

you can, but they become a special second-class type of reference separate from ownership.

They do - but arguably being forced to define the distinction between direct hierarchical references, and symbolic links, helps constrain your data model and make it more rigorous.

Note that relational databases don't have back pointers either. All references between tables are symbolic. Last century, people tried to make databases that were general pointer graphs (google "network database" or "object database") - broadly speaking, it was a disaster.

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#258
post #209
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Peter Thiel is known for his financial support of... neoreactionarism Do you have examples?

Sure. He funds Eliezer Yudkowsky through MIRI; "friendly AI" futurism is at this point a branch of the "Dark Enlightenment". Thiel himself has famously said "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible".

The first sentence above is completely false. Eliezer Yudkowsky has explicitly stated that he has nothing to do with the reactionaries, and the latest stats on the friendly AI community (as gathered at lesswrong.com) show about 2% of members are neoreactionaries. Further, with FHI at Oxford, FLI at MIT, CSER at Cambridge, the Superintelligence book being endorsed by everyone from Elon Musk, to Stephen Haking, to Morgan Freeman, calling MIRI/Friendly AI a branch of the reactionaries can't be anything else but a deliberate attempt to smear people's reputation.

I'm on the record as having several severe criticisms of EY/MIRI, but being neoreactionaries is not one of them.

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#259
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. He funds Eliezer Yudkowsky through MIRI; "friendly AI" futurism is at this point a branch of the "Dark Enlightenment". Thiel himself has famously said "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible".

The first sentence above is completely false. Eliezer Yudkowsky has explicitly stated that he has nothing to do with the reactionaries, and the latest stats on the friendly AI community (as gathered at lesswrong.com) show about 2% of members are neoreactionaries. Further, with FHI at Oxford, FLI at MIT, CSER at Cambridge, the Superintelligence book being endorsed by everyone from Elon Musk, to Stephen Haking, to Morg…

EY has made a point of saying that he has nothing to do with Moldbug, but ideologically there isn't much room between Moldbug-style techno-monarchism and the 'friendly AI' utopia.

I'm referring more generally to the "Dark Enlightenment" than just neoreactionaries. In that group I include pretty much any group focused on alternatives to liberal democracy, with carve-outs for Marxists and fascists. EY fits comfortably into that category (see his "Politics Is The Mind-Killer" tract).

Re: Urbit: a personal cloud computer

#260
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A given Nock implementation is intimately coupled to a matched Hoon compiler. Attempts to write anything just to T-shirt spec and run on a given Nock-based platform are almost certain to fail. The real spec you'd be required to write to is implied by the platform implementation. Marketing problem: That real spec is not very elegant and it doesn't zip down to a handful of bytes. It doesn't fit on a T-shirt. It's not a…

If you s/is/could be/, I would agree. I would say s/is/should not be/. That is, it is possible to screw this up and create "intimacy" (high coupling), but obviously I recommend against it. Put it this way: when it's properly done, the jets (specific optimizations) are coupled to your compiler and libraries about the way your display server is coupled to your graphics driver. As a programmer you can't, don't and shoul…

So T-shirt spec is like the written law of Urbit; strangers can read it, we can't help that. But of course there are the unwritten laws and rules of polite speech, here in Urbit just as everywhere else. There are special occasions (you just know!) where you must use exactly the right phrases (you just know!)

Ahh, but she slips, uses the wrong phrase. Now everybody knows: she's a pervert! Rolling her own decrement, the little... Quick, freeze her out of the conversation. She shall speak no more.

But look, isn't she hot? Really, it could be nice... but alas, there's just no way around Urbit gov's cryptographic chastity belt locks...

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