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Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

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Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#251

Post by thecage411 »

bfe wrote: post #195
fennecfoxen wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's just play economist and call it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_seeking > In public choice theory, rent-seeking is spending wealth on political lobbying to increase one's share of existing wealth without creating wealth. The effects of rent-seeking are reduced economic efficiency through poor allocation of resources, reduced wealth creation, lost government revenue, national decline, and income inequality. Cu…

The term "rent-seeking" is accurate within the study of economics, but is bound not to be understood accurately by lots of non-economists. It resembles a competing, everyday meaning that is inocuous: buying a property or other asset and renting it out is a valuable service, whereas "rent-seeking" is destructive. The term is economists' jargon that euphemizes the problem. If I were the chief of the rent-seeking lobby,…

Except that the terms "economic central planning" and "rent seeking" are orthogonal, even if the results are the same. You could, in theory, have economic central planning without rent seeking -- though it may not work that way in practice.

I think the above poster had it correct; refer to it as "crony capitalism" to non-economists.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#252

Post by oh_sigh »

GauntletWizard wrote: post #129
rst wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one thing, an OTA update mechanism is obviously more subject to third-party spoofing than an update delivered by physical ethernet from the dealership. (BTW, do Teslas apply OTA updates while the car is underway, or store them up for application when parked? If the former, then applying even a correct update to a car in motion could have all sorts of nasty consequences if it resulted in a sudden change to, say, r…

I'm sorry, but no. No, most manufacturers update processes aren't actually secure in any meaningful way. Tesla's OTA process seems to use (I've not checked it myself) web standards, encryption, and signatures to verify that the OTA update is correct. The "Physical ethernet cable" that is used by traditional manufacturers can be done by any hobo on the street, in pretty much the same time. It's really only a matter of…

Source please regarding teslas OTA process.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#253

Post by andymcsherry »

oh_sigh wrote: post #249
vampirechicken wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time I was in NJ, the full-service gas there was the same price as the self-serve in suburban NY. Maybe that's changed, but given the hug number of commuters in NJ, I conclude it likely that holy hell would have been raised of full-serve was significantly more expensive.

States impose different taxes on their gas. Presumably if NJ allowed self-pump, those prices would be slightly lower. However, in the grand scheme of things, the eliminating the payroll costs from the gas price in NJ would barely have any impact. At a normal gas station which is neither busy nor desolate, an attendant may be able to serve, let's say, 30 cars an hour. If they each get $20 worth of gas, and the total c…

$20 / ($20 * 30) = 3.3%

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#254

Post by unethical_ban »

maratd wrote: post #229
grellas wrote: post #211

Paternalistic meddling with free consumer choices is always fraught with peril. Sometimes it is necessary to protect important principles in society. You can't discriminate based on race - that limits choice but who would support the contrary? You can't defraud people in selling products - ditto. You can't buy land to build a smokestack plant in a quiet residential neighborhood - ditto. Many other examples might be c…

While I agree with the spirit of your post and that of Mr. Musk, there's something missing here. Contrary to Mr. Musk's assertion of conspiracy, what seems to have happened here is that there were some unfortunate laws on the books that weren't being enforced. Various business interests (ie the car dealers) complained to the Motor Vehicle Commission. The MVC created a new regulation to reflect the laws already on the…

Christie didn't say "I wish this is repealed, but it's my duty"; he said it's for the good of the consumer. It is industry protection.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#255

Post by manmountain »

Edmond wrote: post #32

I hope people don't forget the profit motive of Mr Musk. It seems technology entrepreneurs have adopted the rhetoric of "just trying to make the world a better place" while conveniently ignoring their own profit making motives. I am no friend of car dealers but I am also not going to be suckered by a self-serving sales pitch. While I don't necessarily support the NJ move, I think we should start asking questions abou…

You mean like buying billions of gallons of oil from the Middle East?

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#256

Post by ams6110 »

doorhammer wrote: post #238
mikestew wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I remember those times, too; perhaps less nostalgically than you do. Take your ignition system example. Sure, one could dig in there and replace and adjust the points. But you did it because you had to, you had to do it regularly, and it would be adjusted correctly exactly once: after you did the job. From there, the points immediately started wearing and it would not be exactly right until you did it again. So…

Hah, I'm glad you mentioned points and carbs. Those are the two examples of systems I just don't want to have to screw with ever again. Carbs are great until something in the environment changes and they're not perfect anymore. I want MAF's, o2 sensors, etc, thanks. I think my favorite car was my late 80's toyota truck with a 22RE. For my taste (which would vary wildly for another person) it had the perfect blend of…

Toyota trucks of that era were great mechanically, and the 22RE was a great little engine, but they would rust out in no time. OK for the south but not a good choice for anyplace that salt is used.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#257

Post by Xylakant »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #132
ssmoot wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's site is a bit frustrating. I get most of those same benefits driving a Nissan Leaf. So I'm not really interested in a "true cost" comparison to a gas vehicle I wouldn't be buying anyways. Turns out the Model S at $1,466 as optioned is more expensive than a Leaf. :) Not that I wouldn't kill for a 300 mile range...

I'm sure the Leaf is a fine vehicle. But I see them directed at two different audiences. That logic would also question why get a Porsche 911 when you can get a VW Beetle for a fraction of the price? They are both German engineered gas vehicles, after all.

Fun fact: The Beetle was originally designed by Ferdinand Porsche, so you'd even drive a "real" Porsche in both cases.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#258

Post by manmountain »

jusben1369 wrote: post #29

Musk is massively disingenuous and rather insulting to our intelligence. But he's a heck of a salesman and makes a wonderful car. Like many persuasive people he arrives at an answer and backs into rationale but makes it appear the other way around. I'll give you just one example. The law of the land in NJ is that you can't sell in NJ unless through a dealership. That's the current law. Those laws need to change to al…

Nice try, New Jersey auto salesman.

Seriously, how can you be on the "we've got to enforce current law" side? It's so ridiculously anti free market that I'm sure all the Tea Partiers are having cognitive dissonance over this.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#259

Post by noonespecial »

stcredzero wrote: post #39
skore wrote: post #10

> An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service, but electric cars require much less service than gasoline cars. There are no oil, spark plug or fuel filter changes, no tune-ups and no smog checks needed for an electric car. Also, all Tesla Model S vehicles are capable of over-the-air updates to upgrade the software, just like your phone or computer, so no v…

An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service I am old enough to remember what owning a car was like when things were changing away from mechanical devices one could understand and tinker with and becoming nondescript hunks of plastic you had to buy from a manufacturer. (I'm talking about the ignition system, as one specific example.) There was always a bit…

It kind of feels like the opposite is happening today with the "maker" movement. With those "blobs of plastic" falling left and right to arduinos and 3d printers, it seems like the makers are on a tear to bring the "good old days" back again.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#260

Post by curun1r »

stcredzero wrote: post #39
skore wrote: post #10

> An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service, but electric cars require much less service than gasoline cars. There are no oil, spark plug or fuel filter changes, no tune-ups and no smog checks needed for an electric car. Also, all Tesla Model S vehicles are capable of over-the-air updates to upgrade the software, just like your phone or computer, so no v…

An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service I am old enough to remember what owning a car was like when things were changing away from mechanical devices one could understand and tinker with and becoming nondescript hunks of plastic you had to buy from a manufacturer. (I'm talking about the ignition system, as one specific example.) There was always a bit…

As long as the carmaker is open about things, the increasing complexity doesn't have to be bad news for tinkerers. It's not officially released yet, but https://github.com/timdorr/model-s-api shows the promise of Tesla's commitment to openness. It won't allow the "how does my car work?" type of tinkering, but it allows the "how can I use my car in interesting ways?" tinkering.

It's much the same as computers. The original Apples were understandable devices. The lack of miniaturization meant that hackers could figure out how everything was working and play with it. That activity would be ridiculous with modern-day CPUs/components as the complexity has increased by orders of magnitude and the miniaturization has reached levels where specialized equipment is needed to look at what's going on that costs well beyond what can fit in a hobbyist's budget. Yet modern-day computers are still programmable and people are still learning and hacking. The only difference is that this learning is happening a few abstraction levels removed from the actual hardware. The same will be true with cars, provided manufacturers are as cooperative as Tesla seems to be.

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