Live data from Hacker News

NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

washingtonpost.com

251–260 of 297 posts

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've silenced over 200,000 people with national security letters. Nick Merrill is one example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Merril https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpRp-D5v5NQl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT2fQu50sMs Brewster Kahle is another from archive.org: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/06/what-...

I can't tell if you're being funny or not by linking to two YouTube videos, a New Yorker article, and a Wikipedia page that doesn't exist. Also, that's not the kind of silencing we're talking about. We're talking about the act of blackmail using data collected by spying programs.

Interestingly, the Wikipedia article works in non-SSL mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Merrill works, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Merrill doesn't.

Edit: more oddly, they now both appear to work?

Edit: far less oddly, it looks like the OP just forgot to include the trailing 'L', and I hadn't noticed.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#252

AFAIK no one ever asked Clapper (or any other NSA representative) to give a precise operational definition of the term "metadata". I don't want to hear what someone else thinks "metadata" is, I want to know how NSA operationally defines "metadata" internally and precisely when and where the usage(s) are made. Voice: I am on the telephone with you. My actual voice is the data. Is the digitization of my voice not metad…

Your request to have them explicitly define what they are designating as metadata is wise. They may have a completely distorted concept of metadata that represents a drastic departure from any sane definition. But the definitions you've put forth are completely off target, with respect to the layman's ordinary, rational concept of metadata. Conceptually, metadata forms a map of relationships between actual examples o…

I don't believe the layman has an "ordinary, rational concept of metadata".

The NSA's library metaphor was well-chosen: loose enough to possibly explain but complex enough to mislead. It derailed the conversation.

But I see no utility in the light bulb metaphor you present, except possibly to mislead as most metaphors can do. I would never use it in this context.

The point is to eliminate the metaphors. "Just the facts, ma'am." as Dragnet's Sgt. Friday (didn't exactly) always says.

"why would you want anyone like that to speak a single word?"

To find the truth. If not, to reveal those who lie under oath. To eliminate the metaphors and replace them with facts.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#253
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered the same thing privately numerous times. I believe it is a reflexive reaction because they can easily be killed doing their jobs, which they signed up for. It is some kind of bizarre "patriotic" requirement, likely borne of the significant derision heaped upon returning Vietnam veterans. Perhaps it is a generation of people who never want to see that happen again that have created this sacred cow?

Heaping derision on people who were victims themselves, drafted into a war they did not believe in, is one thing. I totally understand why people might recoil from that. With an all-volunteer army though? No way, it is on them as much as it is on anybody. I don't care if they joined for the GI Bill (doing it for the [college] money is a pretty fucking flimsy ethical justification), I don't care if they joined the res…

I agree completely.

Here is a combat veteran discussing what it is actually like. This sentiment is basically echoed among the friends that I have who have served in the military.

http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/03/01/call-of-apathy-vi...

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an entirely meritless accusation. I wouldn't want the power if it were handed to me, and frankly, if I were "in charge" of everything, the very first thing I would do is repeal any and every law that places anyone above, outside of, or beyond the purview of the law. Our nation was founded on the concept that nobody is exempt from the law, and the NDAA, Patriot Act and laws of their ilk are antithetical to that…

Our nation was not founded on the concept that nobody is exempt from the law (see: Presidential pardons). That's an intellectually dishonest thing to say. What you suggest is quite simply stupid - should every enemy combatant be given the chance to take the lives of US citizens, just in the effort to give that combatant a trial? Hold trials on the battlefield? Your problem boils down to the fact that there are people…

I'll respond to the little bit of your post that isn't a baseless ad hominem.

Presidential pardons have legal validity for purposes of righting wrongdoings, travesties of justice, and for preventing excessive punishment of those unjustly sentenced for political crimes, etc. It's stated intent is to correct injustice, not perpetrate it.

I'm not suggesting that every enemy combatant deserves trial -- in an active war, it is ridiculous to suggest that bullets are halted mid-air to conduct court. It is equally naive to suggest that the government is justified in the slaughter of everyone who might ever do us harm.

Has it been abused, certainly. Show me a law that hasn't. The difference between pardon and NDAA-type of laws is that the latter has no redeeming characteristic. Its sole purpose is to vest a single person with the power to do literally whatever he wishes, without oversight, without scrutiny, without potential for remediation. There is no justice to be found in its exertion, even when used for noble intent.

There are, or at least were, procedures in place that would have prevented such atrocity from occurring, but those procedures were nullified by the NDAA. There is no need for government oversight whatsoever, nor any reason to suggest that whomever happens to be president cannot simply murder whomever he wants under the guise of national interest.

I understand that the NDAA and PATRIOT Act weren't created in a bubble, but as you have implored me to "study the history" (which I am well aware of, and don't understand what I might have said to convince you of my ignorance of an era that I was actively involved in), I would implore you to study the documents that led up to our nation's independence.

Overwhelmingly, they point to the foulness of this sort of unchecked power, and the founding fathers literally made every effort to ensure that this sort of abuse never came to pass.

Whether or not the NDAA or PATRIOT Act is ever used is irrelevant, their very existence negates the tenets of our central foundation of governance.

> Sometimes the US government goes too far, but not nearly as often, or nearly as extreme as you keep saying

The federal government goes beyond its Constitutional authority literally every single day in this nation. The government exerts federal control in California to arrest the proprietors of legal marijuana dispensaries. They do this by abusing the Interstate Commerce Clause. The Commerce Clause grants Congress the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes" -- and by abusing the 'among', have defined that to mean that they can control any action within a state, whether or not that action may extend beyond a state's borders.

The federal government further abuses the 'Necessary and Proper' clause to extend its powers beyond their section 8 enumerated powers.

There are literally countless examples of federal overreach, some of which are gaining ground in recent times, like the overturning of DOMA (Thanks Obama). I'm sorry you don't see them, or don't see them as the overreach I so strongly believe them to be.

Either way, I won't further engage in a conversation predicated on your baseless attacks due to a relatively minor disagreement on merits. I would encourage you to learn how to converse with others without resorting to ad hominem attacks. Your views aren't invalid just because I disagree with them, however strongly I might, and you'd do well to acknowledge as much.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've silenced over 200,000 people with national security letters. Nick Merrill is one example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Merril https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpRp-D5v5NQl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT2fQu50sMs Brewster Kahle is another from archive.org: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/06/what-...

I can't tell if you're being funny or not by linking to two YouTube videos, a New Yorker article, and a Wikipedia page that doesn't exist. Also, that's not the kind of silencing we're talking about. We're talking about the act of blackmail using data collected by spying programs.

I apologise for the quality of the sources of information. I can't find alternatives. It's interesting to note Obama's speech on NSL's from 2005 five minutes in to the first youtube video. As an authority on such issues he should be held in high enough regard for you.

"Then they came for the blah, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a blah."

In responding to the above, you said: "What group is no longer here because the CIA/NSA have decided they shouldn't exist?"

The absence of voices contesting this apparatus is used as a defence for the NSL's and a similar mechanism used under FISA.

200,000 is a huge number. Their dissenting voices don't exist legally, they cannot speak out.

Imagine this: "I didn't speak out for the blah because I got a national security letter."

I see no mention of blackmail, who were you talking to about blackmail?

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#256
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are the second person to bring up sociopaths as if they don't match the definition of evil I wrote above. The thing is, they are the very personification of lacking empathy. They believe that their own welfare is more important than anyone else's. They don't see that as evil, they see it as the way of the world.

The point is they don't rationalize or justify what they do, they simply don't care. They know it's wrong (by societies/normal people's) standards, but it doesn't violate their own. This is what I consider evil, and I think it's important to separate it from people who think what they are doing is ok. I.e. "Someone else would have done it anyways", a thief who steals from a bank because "they have insurance" or "they…

They know it's wrong (by societies/normal people's) standards, but it doesn't violate their own.

Tou keep saying that, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think parent was equating current times with post-WWI era Europe in the least. He was simply saying that people who inherited a challenging/dangerous geo-political landscape went on to create an unimaginably worse geo-political landscape. The current challenge is global terrorism, but the swing towards authoritarianism by Western governments may end up being FAR worse than the threat of terrorism.

Then what he was saying is immensely broad and basically useless as guidance for today. "Bad thing happened at some point in history" is worthless, as a sentence. And we're not swinging towards authoritarianism. That's absolutely a lie. Want to know the irony in you saying that? That you can say that, and not fear your door being knocked down and you being questioned. You don't know authoritarianism if you think the…

Well, just because I can say what I want today, doesn't mean the same will be true tomorrow. We're already past the point that people are beginning to self-censor out of fear of the surveillance state. We already have indefinite detentions, torture, secret laws with secret interpretations, and state-sanctioned kidnappings.

Looking across the pond at England, they went from filtering the internet to block child porn, to filtering the internet to block extremists in less than one year. You have UK law enforcement harassing and intimidating legitimate journalism about the out of control surveillance state.

Maybe none of that is alarming to you, and maybe you don't think any of those things are along the road that leads to an authoritarian state, but I and many others feel differently. Either way, just because my perception of events is different that yours doesn't make my perception a lie.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#258
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While in school for Computer Engineering (2002-2007 or so), I actually had two ethics classes, one specifically for Engineering and one for Information ethics. I dont know how standard that is, but all the engineering disciplines had to take the Engineering one and computer scienc-y students had to take Info ethics.

Interesting. I'd never heard of this, but it makes sense. Whereabouts did you go to school?

Dayton, Ohio. We talked about a lot of interesting topics, like Whistleblowing (particularly relevant nowadays) and what sort of ethical obligations you have, in addition to stuff like "dont cut corners, dont be lazy, etc", the normal engineering things.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think parent was equating current times with post-WWI era Europe in the least. He was simply saying that people who inherited a challenging/dangerous geo-political landscape went on to create an unimaginably worse geo-political landscape. The current challenge is global terrorism, but the swing towards authoritarianism by Western governments may end up being FAR worse than the threat of terrorism.

Then what he was saying is immensely broad and basically useless as guidance for today. "Bad thing happened at some point in history" is worthless, as a sentence. And we're not swinging towards authoritarianism. That's absolutely a lie. Want to know the irony in you saying that? That you can say that, and not fear your door being knocked down and you being questioned. You don't know authoritarianism if you think the…

Your argument is invalid. That there are features of "authoritarianism" currently missing doesn't in any way show that we're not "swinging towards authoritarianism", any more than not seeing redwoods outside your car windows means you're not driving towards California.

Being in a place where "authoritarianism" is one bad actor away is not a good place to be. If you feel that we 1) are not in that such a place, and 2) are not likely to be any time soon, then feel free to make that case.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going on the assumption that most people in population centers use or have used the internet; and that the number of people that were not in population centers was less than 20%; and I mental-gymnastics'd myself to thinking that those population centers tend to be on the shore, so I said it that way. Not necessarily right, but that's how I go there.

"most people in population centers use or have used the internet" 80% is "most" by lots of definitions.

You're right; but I figured 95-99% in population centers and much more than 50% everywhere else, which ends up being more like at least 86% of the people in the United States used the internet in the last year.
Post reply on HN