Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation • Hacker News Board

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#251

Post by clarkm » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 8:15 PM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #115

clarkm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better analogy is height. Given some minimal level of nutrition, a child's adult height can be extrapolated quite accurately from their parents' genomes. However, if a child grows up in abject poverty, all bets are off. See Judith Rich Harris' The Nurture Assumption [1] for details. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption

However we barely understand the genetic factors. In humans it can be pretty difficult to control the environment. And then we assume we can understand the genetics of intelligence, when we barely understand either genetics or intelligence itself.

You can keep saying stuff like that, but I hope you're not using it as a pretext for ignoring the latest scientific developments.

Have you heard of GWAS? They've had some major breakthroughs over the past few years, and have recently had some interesting results with regard to educational attainment. From Science:

https://www.sciencemag.org/content/340/6139/1467.abstract

If you want some more information, here's a good article from early 2012 summarizing the previous five years of findings:

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929711005337

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#252

Post by nollidge » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 8:35 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #126

corin_ wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a debate about how things work, "you're wrong because we know you're wrong" isn't a useful argument. As to comparison to other animals, we also know that there is a genetic component to being able to live under water, as fish can do this and humans can't, this doesn't mean some humans are better than others at living without air.

The difference being that humans aren't descended from fish, but are descended from apes. We know that some kind of incremental genetic "improvement" to our intelligence must have evolved and then become universal throughout the populations that speciated to become modern humans.

Not fish per se, but we sure as hell are descended from underwater dwellers.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#253

Post by sliverstorm » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 8:37 PM UTC

electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment"

No it isn't. Think of a young mind as putty. When born, it's just a blob of putty. Children aren't born intelligent. As the child grows, the environment shapes the putty. Some children have different putty than other kids- maybe a little more, a little less, a little firmer, a little more plastic.

Thus, intelligence is determined both by what you have to start with, and your environment. You don't have to be born with intelligence, to be born possessing the raw materials to create great intelligence.

It's not like Usain Bolt was born the fastest runner in the world. He became fast, partly thanks to what he had to work with, and partly thanks to his environment. That's the point here.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#254

Post by tsotha » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 8:41 PM UTC

Anybody who's seen a family with more than one child knows environment isn't the primary determinant of intelligence. I know the blank slate theory is comfortable from a political standpoint, but to quote Orwell, "You have to be an intellectual to believe such nonsense. No ordinary man could be such a fool."

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#255

Post by jmcphers » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 9:01 PM UTC

Kudzu_Bob wrote: post #38

I guess poor children hear fewer words because they don't watch much television.

It's the opposite, actually: poor children watch much more television, because their parents don't have time to spend with them.

And it's the words spoken by those parents that matter.

It has been suggested that television isn't itself harmful, and is only correlated with poor outcomes because it displaces time that would otherwise spent on actual interaction.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#256

Post by malandrew » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 9:16 PM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #183

eulerphi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edges between abstractions? You lost me with your abstraction.

Graph edges

This. betweenness, centrality, distance, nodes and edges are all graph theory terms. I wrote that in Safari on an iPhone so it wasn't easy to proofread. A few typos and one repeated word in there.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#257

Post by Kudzu_Bob » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 9:18 PM UTC

baldfat wrote: post #176

xenophanes wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim to "demonstrate that it's a lot more complex than just environmental factors". But the correct conclusion from what you said is that you demonstrated that it's a lot more complex than just the environmental factors that you thought of. You seem to be concluding genetic factors ("always had an intrinsic motivation"). But "not all environment" does not imply "some genetics", that is a false alternative. There…

So individually we see exceptions (Which could be seen differently if studied more) In vast numbers we seen factors. Apples vs Oranges = Looking at Millions vs Individual. I am a teacher in a city. My students are 100% below poverty line. My student under perform dramatically for their age when they walk through our doors. BUT there are exceptions. You are possibly one exception. BUT when you look at millions of poor…

Have you compared the test scores of poor white children with the test scores of upper middle class black children? The results are, uh, interesting.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#258

Post by jmcphers » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 9:18 PM UTC

jmcphers wrote: post #255

Kudzu_Bob wrote: post #38

I guess poor children hear fewer words because they don't watch much television.

It's the opposite, actually: poor children watch much more television, because their parents don't have time to spend with them. And it's the words spoken by those parents that matter. It has been suggested that television isn't itself harmful, and is only correlated with poor outcomes because it displaces time that would otherwise spent on actual interaction.

Reference for "poor children watch more television": http://thegrio.com/2012/10/01/study-children-from-african-am...

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#259

Post by Kudzu_Bob » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 9:22 PM UTC

lutusp wrote: post #159

Kudzu_Bob wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average IQ produced by natural selection depends on the environment. There is no ideal level of intelligence apart from environment. If the Earth had a uniform climate, terrain, and so on from pole to pole, this presumably would not be the case.

> If the Earth had a uniform climate, terrain, and so on from pole to pole, this presumably would not be the case. I think that would also produce an optimal IQ, just a different one. But all IQs, indeed all traits of living organisms, ultimately derive from the degree to which they contribute to fitness.

You seem to be under the impression that there is but a sole optimal IQ. This seems unlikely, when one thinks about the radically varying conditions lived by humans at, say, the Arctic Circle and the Equator, particularly before the rise of globalism.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#260

Post by joshstella » Wed, Oct 02, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

You might be interpreting the "claim" more rigidly than is warranted in a popular publication. Personally, I think children are born potentially smart, but intelligence must be developed constantly in my experience. I have found that many people limit their own intelligence by not stressing themselves, and I suspect the same is true for outside influences. There is a reason people associate bookishness with intelligence and I don't think it's a one-way relationship. I have known a few people whom I believe are not potentially smart, but not that many.