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The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

rigsomelight.com

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Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The structure I priced out was also only 8 feet tall. About half the cost -- if I recall -- was doors, windows, and skylights, and the other half was the walls, ceiling, and floor. So you'd expect a structure with roughly double the surface area to be roughly $3000 instead of $2000. Depending on material choices, you would probably end up with a cost of between $2000 and $4000 by the time you put the last coat o…

You can't plan, receive approval for, build, receive inspections on, and move in to a house for anywhere near as little as $40,000. Try double or triple for a bad one. Perhaps with the exception of a kit-home in nowheresville, NO.

You're more or less right, but I can weasel a technical victory.

The cost to build a house is essentially per square foot. In my area, about $140 / square foot for decent quality. Not the best quality, but good enough. So a small house (1000 sq ft) costs about $140,000 to build, and a large house (4000 sq ft) costs about $560,000 to build. That's parts, labor, permits.

But if you're willing to build what amounts to a studio apartment, you can totally build it for next to nothing. The smallest standard set of plans I found online was 213 square feet. Even adding in the $2500 they're wanting for that one (most standard plans are around $500), that still gives you a price tag of $32,500, which gives you a $7500 margin between the estimated budget and the stated $40,000, for cost overruns and furnishings.

Of course, the point wasn't "You can build a house for $40,000, that's totally cheap", it was "Now, a $2100 dome is 20x cheaper than even a minimal house, which is fantastic, but it's nearly half the price of a $4000 stick-frame structure with identical functionality. Is that cheaper-enough to declare domes the way forward on price alone?"

Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#252
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're renting, right? Isn't part of the point not to be wasting capital on rent? (I'm a CO man myself)

"Wasting capital on rent" may be the worst nonsense in our financial folklore. Always run the numbers. Rent vs. mortgage calculators and spreadsheets are readily available. Understand the factors they use, and perhaps tweak for your own needs and priorities. I'm glad that I did, as I completely dodged the disaster that was the housing bubble as a result -- my rent always looked like a killer deal compared to nutso ho…

The best online rent-versus-buy calculator I have found is the one created by the New York Times [1]. As others in this thread have already noted, in suburban-to-urban population densities, the cost of shelter is in the dirt, not the improvements. The wisdom of embedding wealth into dirt in a highly technologically-developed economy where the value chain is much, much more abstracted away from the dirt is lost upon me. Bidding up the cost of dirt just seems to me an easy way to factor away any incremental new wealth created by those living on and paying for the dirt.

Even lots of programmers here on HN eagerly brag up "good buys" they made on their houses, characterized as "good" because the house "went up in value".

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/business/buy-rent-calcula...

Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > If I want to spend my time writing blog posts, exploring new programming languages, and other things that I want to do but I am unlikely to get paid for, it’s helpful to opt out of certain common expenses. Housing is a major expense that is ripe for pruning. I'd say "the intended use case" here is clearly to replace your primary residence, which is both what makes the project interesting and what…

You can replace your primary residence and at the same time change your lifestyle expectation. From the article: "If you are considering a canvas dome, teepee, or yurt you should consider building a frameless dome as well." I'd say that if you're considering replacing your primary residence with a teepee, you're looking at certain lifestyle expectation that don't necessarily include building codes.

You're probably also looking at a lifestyle that makes it difficult to "explore new programming languages." For that, you'll need to live in a city, so you can go poop and charge your laptop somewhere nearby, in which case building codes are relevant.

Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#254
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're renting, right? Isn't part of the point not to be wasting capital on rent? (I'm a CO man myself)

"Wasting capital on rent" may be the worst nonsense in our financial folklore. Always run the numbers. Rent vs. mortgage calculators and spreadsheets are readily available. Understand the factors they use, and perhaps tweak for your own needs and priorities. I'm glad that I did, as I completely dodged the disaster that was the housing bubble as a result -- my rent always looked like a killer deal compared to nutso ho…

So that provides a reason for temporarily avoiding purchases when the prices are inflated and/or mortgage deals are bad.

See purchasing as a hedge. "Worst case" your property becomes worthless, and you're left with nothing when the mortgage is paid down and may have paid more per month on average until them (but if so, while you may have lost vs. renting, properties are now ludicrously cheap, so who cares?). Meanwhile, if prices skyrocket, your equity likely rises at roughly the same rate.

In the long run even those you know who are now seriously underwater are likely to do just fine as long as they can afford to sit tight. Of course people can "play the market" and do a good job timing when it's better to rent and buy again later, but as with anything it's very easy to mistime.

It's extremely hard to come out badly if you are prepared to hold a property long term, though, as long as you don't overstretch, and can afford to sit tight for a few years if you go under water early on.

Even if you end up paying more per month for a mortgage initially (I never did), chances are you'll be able to remortgage and bring the rates down to below rental costs within a couple of years once you've built up a bit of equity, and from then on save money every month on top of repaying the capital on the mortgage and be left living "rent free" apart from maintenance costs and insurance at the end of it.

I'll never go back to renting - if I'd bought as soon as I could, I'd had roughly about 200k pounds more equity today, and would have had roughly the same monthly costs for most of that time. As it is, I'm now paying half as much on a mortgage as I would to rent the same size property, and my debt is dropping in absolute terms, and my interest rate is below inflation, so in real terms I'm getting fantastic value.

Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#255
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That degree of structural integrity is overkill for a greenhouse. Just get some bamboo poles with a sheet of transparent plastic and you're done: instant greenhouse.

You should see my effort at doing that previously. Ugly stuff! Had problems with even a light wind and the plastic staying in place, sagging, etc. What I had in mind with the dome of plates was something that would almost stand out as a feature in the garden. I guess an issue with the dome approach that'd need solving was making it fairly airtight so warm air and moisture would be retained.

I've seen very large amounts of these things in high wind areas of China. (The Chinese have been very good at transferring the fruits of academic agricultural research to farmers.) The ones I've seen have been very long (say, 20M per structure), usually but not exclusively curved-top, and the plastic has been held down under pressure. Occasionally, depending upon the prevailing environmental conditions, one of the long sides of the structure has its plastic rolled back and pinned up half way, similar to the mechanisms you see on commercially produced tents. Likewise, sometimes the ends are left opened, other times they are closed to minimise air exchange.

Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wasting capital on rent" may be the worst nonsense in our financial folklore. Always run the numbers. Rent vs. mortgage calculators and spreadsheets are readily available. Understand the factors they use, and perhaps tweak for your own needs and priorities. I'm glad that I did, as I completely dodged the disaster that was the housing bubble as a result -- my rent always looked like a killer deal compared to nutso ho…

The best online rent-versus-buy calculator I have found is the one created by the New York Times [1]. As others in this thread have already noted, in suburban-to-urban population densities, the cost of shelter is in the dirt, not the improvements. The wisdom of embedding wealth into dirt in a highly technologically-developed economy where the value chain is much, much more abstracted away from the dirt is lost upon m…

Personally I want my house to drop in value, as long as it doesn't drop faster than my repayments, and as long as other properties in the area also drops: I want to be able to trade up cheaply.

As for the "wisdom of embedding wealth into dirt": Long term, if property values drop, so what. You lose a little bit on your purchase vs. renting in that case, but you get massively cheaper housing from then on if you opt to switch back to renting and/or the value for money will be massively better if you decide to trade up to a bigger house. But if property values rises dramatically, owning a property is a very effective hedge against seeing your living costs skyrocket. See it as insurance.

In that respect people do make good buys when the house goes up value: It means they largely locked in their housing costs at a lower rate and their insurance is paying off.

Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#257
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also sat out the housing bubble and its insane prices, but now we have a house we love and very small mortgage. Of course capital invested during a bubble is wasted, but that doesn't mean all investment in that asset class is a bad idea.

But saidajigumi didn't say that buying is always a bad idea. He said "always run the numbers."

As long as you know how to factor in the costs if it turns out you were nowhere near the peak of the bubble, and you factor in the "lost" capital from paying rent rather than paying down on a mortgage. It can turn out to be extremely costly to wait out a bubble even if the alternative is buying a property that is guaranteed to drop in value at some point.

Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's loads of info out there on websites and torrents, which I've spent the last year or two devouring. The main thing is to understand where you might like to live and find a technique that's suitable. If you're happy to move somewhat outside of a city, I'd recommend checking out information around straw building in particular... it's pretty impressive in terms of cost, longevity, seismic, audio and thermal insul…

Thanks! I may come back to you personally for some more information at some point . The biggest challenge in the UK for any kind of alternative construction is still the price of the land. Have you discovered any ways to overcome this challenge?

The UK is almost (bar perhaps Singapore) a worst case scenario: huge land holdings by a small number of established parties, all jobs in essentially one area, and a culture of huge numbers of people living in cramped housing which reduces the demand for proper living space. I lived there for a year and have visited a few other times myself, plus I have a friend from there with a strong interest in alternative construction techniques who is presently searching for a solution to this issue himself. According to him, getting permits to build pretty much anything is really expensive and difficult, which represents an even greater hurdle than the cost of land. On the plus side, a subset of the out-of-town transit links are quite OK if your work in some parts of London or remote.

If I were you I would look about 40min or 1hr commute out by train for special situations (long term land minding, basic groundskeeping on estates for free accomodation, etc.) and/or try to ingratiate yourself with someone with significant landholdings who wouldn't mind carving off a portion to a friend at an agreeable price. Honestly though, why not just leave the UK? It's not really that exciting. France is far cheaper, you get brilliant food, and the people are less football thug slash coke-snortin' bankerish. If you really want to go to London, you can live in Brittany and get a ferry back now and then for not that much money.

Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#259
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, renting in Germany is very different to the USA or UK. In Germany, if you pay your rent the landlord pretty much can't legally get rid of you. Similarly, the amount they can increase your rent is legally capped. It's very much set up to encourage long-term rental and your rights while renting are extremely strong and well-protected. In the UK (and I assume the USA) the landlord can (with a few months warning in…

wow that's interesting - didnt know that its different in germany. The rental policies there must then suppress house prices because its much more cost effective to rent than to buy, especially if you can put the extra money you didn't spend (on purchase of a house) into another form of investment. I wonder if that system is better long term than the ups and downs of the market like the US/UK's.

> The rental policies there must then suppress house prices because its much more cost effective to rent than to buy

It's not that straightforward: Someone have to buy the units that goes onto the rental market as well, so it depends on how attractive property investment is vs. other investment opportunities.

In the UK, cheap access to "buy to let" mortgages coupled with high returns as people were unable to afford to purchase and thus bid up the rental market certainly helped push prices up during the bubble (thus pricing more people out of the market).

Re: The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

#260
post #234
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you're looking at the final dollar amount. Other factors need to come into play when you own a home. My rent was about $1000/month with utilities for about 1000 sq. feet. I now pay a mortgage of $1375/month + about $75 in average monthly utilities. But with that I get a home with 1600 sq. feet living space, not including the finished attic or the unfinished basement and the 7500 sq. foot lot I now have to mo…

What does space have to do with renting vs buying? You can rent whole houses, too.

I'm talking about the tradeoffs, with space being one example. You can certainly rent a whole house, at what will most likely be more than the owner's mortgage so if you want to compare apples to apples on the final dollar amount, you're going to have to give up a few things.
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