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Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

johannakoll.posterous.com

251–257 of 257 posts

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#251
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there should be room for jokes of all kinds: at a standup comedy show, in private among friends and family, etc. We "all" laugh at jokes that are funny until we hear one that "isn't so funny" because it targets something painful in us. For example, I'm pretty damn tired of all jokes about Balkans, ex-Yugoslavia, Serbia, etc. A lot of them are even true, but after several wars and a bombing campaign from NATO an…

Now, imagine being a man. Imagine growing up with TV cartoons grooming you to become a superhero, a movie star, if you failed at that, an office worker. Imagine getting only a certain kind of gifts for birthday, in certain colors. Imagine people paying more attention to your wallet than what you're saying to them. And then imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid. Would you really find a sexist joke funny on…

No, it can't be easily applied to men. Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part. Our society is not equally sexist to men and women. Not even close. I recommend reading "The Distress of the Privileged": http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privile...

I've seen your other comments and I think you're consistently overreacting. Scalzi's essay is there to simply introduce a metaphor to explain why straight white males, on the average, have it easier than other groups. It's not there to condone or promote sexism (or racism or any other unfair discrimination) towards straight white males.

If your whole point is "well, it's not right to be sexist towards men either", then I agree with you completely, but the relevance of your claim is questionable in this discussion because: 1) nobody originally claimed it's right to be sexist to men and 2) sexism towards women is so much more prevalent, especially in our industry, that it's a problem that has higher priority than sexism towards men.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#252
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, imagine being a man. Imagine growing up with TV cartoons grooming you to become a superhero, a movie star, if you failed at that, an office worker. Imagine getting only a certain kind of gifts for birthday, in certain colors. Imagine people paying more attention to your wallet than what you're saying to them. And then imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid. Would you really find a sexist joke funny on…

No, it can't be easily applied to men. Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part. Our society is not equally sexist to men and women. Not even close. I recommend reading "The Distress of the Privileged": http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privile... I've seen your other comments and I think you're consistently overreacting. Scalzi's essay is there to simply…

>Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part.

Please explain to me how boys do not hear sexist jokes towards men but girls hear sexist jokes towards women.

>Our society is not equally sexist to men and women.

I never claimed that it was but I am sick of this complete denial that sexism towards men is an issue and is arguably as big an issue as sexism towards women.

>Scalzi's essay is there to simply introduce a metaphor to explain why straight white males, on the average, have it easier than other groups.

Yes but Scalzi's metaphor does nothing to explain "why" at all. There is no evidence presented. It just presents a metaphor that explains what he thinks is going on not what causes it or if it even exists in the way he thinks it does. Is there some part of it that I am missing?

>It's not there to condone or promote sexism (or racism or any other unfair discrimination) towards straight white males.

It could be argued that constantly telling men (and boys) that they have it easier without presenting evidence of specific areas where this is true is sexist as well as damaging to both men and women.

>If your whole point is "well, it's not right to be sexist towards men either", then I agree with you completely, but the relevance of your claim is questionable in this discussion

My original comment was in reply to klodolph's assertion that sexism towards men is so far fetched that one needs to imagine some alternate reality to our own where sexism towards men exists in order for a man to understand sexism. My argument is that it does exist in this reality and it is far more wide spread than people would have you believe. Klodolph claims that I misunderstood their use of this alternate reality argument so that makes my original comment pointless. Subsequently, halostatue replied with an extremely frustrating comment that suggested that any issue a man has with regards to sexism is always inconsequential because some author wrote a blog post where he claims that men always have it easier to anyone else in the same position. Not only does that make very little sense but condoning the dismissal of sexism towards men in such a way is sexist in itself.

I replied to your post because I am tired of this belief that men need to imagine what sexism feels like in order to understand it. We don't need to imagine what sexism feels like because we experience it all of the time, just like women do.

>1) nobody originally claimed it's right to be sexist to men

Yes nobody claimed that it's right to be sexist towards men but no one seems to acknowledge that it even exists on the scale that it does.

>sexism towards women is so much more prevalent, especially in our industry, that it's a problem that has higher priority than sexism towards men.

This is difficult. I honestly do not know which type of sexism is more prevalent but I feel that that is irrelevant because sexism needs to be seen as a single issue, not as two different issues. In order to get rid of sexism you need to do it in a non sexist way otherwise, you are merely shifting sexism from one group to another. Perpetrating sexism towards men in order to solve (or while solving) sexism towards women does nothing but but cause anger and frustration among men and women.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#253
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it can't be easily applied to men. Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part. Our society is not equally sexist to men and women. Not even close. I recommend reading "The Distress of the Privileged": http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privile... I've seen your other comments and I think you're consistently overreacting. Scalzi's essay is there to simply…

> Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part. Please explain to me how boys do not hear sexist jokes towards men but girls hear sexist jokes towards women. > Our society is not equally sexist to men and women. I never claimed that it was but I am sick of this complete denial that sexism towards men is an issue and is arguably as big an issue as sexism towards women. > Scalzi'…

Please explain to me how boys do not hear sexist jokes towards men but girls hear sexist jokes towards women.

Matter of scale, as before. For every sexist-to-men joke I've heard as a kid, I've heard more than ten sexist-to-women jokes.

I never claimed that it was but I am sick of this complete denial that sexism towards men is an issue and is arguably as big an issue as sexism towards women.

There's no denial that sexism towards men exists. What is being constantly denied is that it's a valid argument in the debates about sexism towards women. Literally every time someone is discussing sexism towards women there's someone -- to be blunt, someone like you -- who says something along the lines of "But, but, there's sexism towards men, too and it ain't right!"

Yes, there's sexism towards men and no, it's not right, but you're derailing the discussion of a more pressing issue: sexism towards women.

No, it's not "arguably as big an issue as sexism towards women", because of the scale and history. Again, it's something pretty well described in "The Distress of the Privileged".

Yes but Scalzi's metaphor does nothing to explain "why" at all. There is no evidence presented. It just presents a metaphor that explains what he thinks is going on not what causes it or if it even exists in the way he thinks it does. Is there some part of it that I am missing?

Yes, you're missing the part called "required reading". It's just like reading an article about using matrices in 3D graphics: you're expected to know basic arithmetic operations such as adding, subtraction, multiplication, etc.

Scalzi's essay presents a way of explaining a phenomenon that has been described and analyzed in a myriad of other places to which you have easy access.

It could be argued that constantly telling men (and boys) that they have it easier without presenting evidence of specific areas where this is true is sexist as well as damaging to both men and women.

That's like arguing that swimming against the current will necessarily move you upriver, without considering how fast you're swimming and how fast the current is.

People are telling men (and boys) that they have it easier because they're still living in the world where it's normal for them to have it easier without even knowing it.

Yes nobody claimed that it's right to be sexist towards men but no one seems to acknowledge that it even exists on the scale that it does.

That's because the scale on which it exists in the areas of the society we're usually discussing (i.e. tech industry) is nothing compared to the scale on which sexism towards women exists in those same areas.

I agree with you that traditional gender roles that are still being imposed on both men and women are just as sexist towards men as they are towards women. Case in point: in the school, a kid is not considered manly if he doesn't conform to those gender preconceptions (hold your drink, have a pretty girlfriend, be muscular and/or athletic).

I honestly do not know which type of sexism is more prevalent but I feel that that is irrelevant because sexism needs to be seen as a single issue, not as two different issues.

That's tricky. You can "see it" as equally wrong and punish it equally, but that's not all there is to handling and countering sexism.

In order to get rid of sexism you need to do it in a non sexist way otherwise, you are merely shifting sexism from one group to another.

I agree that countering sexism to women by being sexist to men is a case of two wrongs not making a right. What I disagree with is your claim that informing men of prevalence of sexism towards women is sexist in itself. What I also disagree with is the idea that men are being equally harmed by whatever degree of sexism towards them exists currently as women are harmed by the degree of sexism that is currently leveled against them.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#254
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bra: hey, this is sexist, you're making me think about breasts. Jock strap: hey, this is sexist, you're making me think about testicles. Edgy humor is risky because someone will always be offended when you tread in these areas.

Jock straps are more about protection than support, though? I say that as an utterly unathletic person, so I could be wrong.

It's also called an athletic supporter and without a cup, it's used to prevent the male genitals from bouncing around in an unhealthy way.

With a cup, it's meant for protecting the male genitals from impact in contact sports like hockey or football.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#255
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part. Please explain to me how boys do not hear sexist jokes towards men but girls hear sexist jokes towards women. > Our society is not equally sexist to men and women. I never claimed that it was but I am sick of this complete denial that sexism towards men is an issue and is arguably as big an issue as sexism towards women. > Scalzi'…

Please explain to me how boys do not hear sexist jokes towards men but girls hear sexist jokes towards women. Matter of scale, as before. For every sexist-to-men joke I've heard as a kid, I've heard more than ten sexist-to-women jokes. I never claimed that it was but I am sick of this complete denial that sexism towards men is an issue and is arguably as big an issue as sexism towards women. There's no denial that se…

Well I guess it comes down to a matter of opinion with regards to the scale of sexism and what is actually happening. I am sure you will argue otherwise and that what you, kludolph and halostatue claim is happening is actually happening. Having been born in the 80s, I feel as though I have been brainwashed my entire life to believe that women are constantly persecuted and men very rarely. Through my experience, I have found nothing of the sort to be true and it is frustrating to find that the same brainwashing continues despite what I have encountered.

I do disagree with a number of points in your reply but I am not going to respond to them because then you will respond to my reply and so on without us getting anywhere. This is futile. Agree to disagree but hopefully you three will try to look at things with a slightly more open mind and I will do the same.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#256
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jock straps are more about protection than support, though? I say that as an utterly unathletic person, so I could be wrong.

It's also called an athletic supporter and without a cup, it's used to prevent the male genitals from bouncing around in an unhealthy way. With a cup, it's meant for protecting the male genitals from impact in contact sports like hockey or football.

TIL. Thanks. I think. ;)

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#257
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, so that makes it right? Men are definitely discriminated at the workplace. I've worked at a few offices which comprised of mostly females and the sexist jokes and discrimination against men was unbearable. It doesn't get stopped because most people don't see it as a high priority.

Women are discriminated more. As this study shows.

it doesn't matter. Both should be stopped..but it seems there is an obvious bias.
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