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Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

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Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious if someone coming into that fresh, without having had the mental exercise of, for example, grappling with data structures and (lower-level) algorithms in practical applications by hand, could achieve a mindset that useful and productive? When I was in design school, as much of our work was in physical media — graphite, cut paper, paint, vine charcoal — as was practicing great kerning and getting experienc…

I was thinking about this (while drawing), and there's a few points to make: * There's meaning in all the little marks. Drawings are potentially layered with meaning. I was drawing a stick I found in the park, and thinking: this is the extent and the way in which the stick is straight or curved, and the specific way and form that it's knobbly, and that's all explained by how it grew; this green on it is the peculiar…

The way I see it is with every stroke, an artist makes multiple decisions, most of them unconscious. They’re based on everything from the media, to our experience, mood, inspiration, and very much on our physiology… the arc of my shoulder and the length of forearm are just as much a part of the process as what inspired me about something to draw. To some extent, much of that is even true in photography.

Diffusion models basically record, classify, and amalgamate those decisions, which is why it’s so dang difficult to get generated art to look like something distinct. Not distinct like an existing artist, but genuinely unique.

The workflow of the prompter is very similar to an existing workflow in the art world: someone commissioning art. There’s often a discussion where the customer gives the artist a textual description, back-and-forth with sketches and preliminary versions, and sometimes revisions if the proposed final product isn’t what they wanted. Commissioning a piece of art is a creative process, but it’s not the same thing as being the artist. Even an art director who has extremely granular control over what they commission would never claim to be the artist. They’d get run out of town. I believe creating a collection though juxtaposition or even curation could be art, but you’d still never be the author of the contained pieces.

Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#252
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 types of people: People who use coding as a means to an end, producing a product People who enjoy process over product and coding is the enjoyable part, not the end product Company executives fall into bucket 1. Even if you love your cushy air-conditioned job, doesn’t mean the people above you don’t see you as a means to an end, a better product. Solo founders and small startups are in bucket 1 as well but that doe…

The difference is about slop tolerance not "process over product".

Brother, there was slop before AI and slop after AI.

Pre-AI slop got a pass because the creator probably worked tirelessly to make it and that process gave it value.

Post-AI slop get criticized because AI can create it so fast and easily.

But the builder has not changed. Because the builder knows that the product depends on iteration and polish. And knowing what to iterate and what to polish requires intuition and taste. And thats the thing about taste, its forever fleeting. What we think is AI slop, was actually novel and coveted at a point before AI existed.

Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#253
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is about slop tolerance not "process over product".

Brother, there was slop before AI and slop after AI. Pre-AI slop got a pass because the creator probably worked tirelessly to make it and that process gave it value. Post-AI slop get criticized because AI can create it so fast and easily. But the builder has not changed. Because the builder knows that the product depends on iteration and polish. And knowing what to iterate and what to polish requires intuition and ta…

Yea, you can create code slop much quicker these days. That much is true.

Whether the demand will match the supply is still an open question. Did the apple app store need another 4,000 to do apps? I guess we'll see.

Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#254
post #184

We were so spoiled. We got fat salaries to sit in air conditioned Herman Millers all day learning about computers. Now we discover a way to synthesis intelligence and the only thing we can think to do with it is ruin the most fun career most of us could have ever hoped for. Sure, we're all more productive now, but how much of that is because we leverage AI on top of the intelligence we gained from all of that manual…

> Sure, we're all more productive now, but… I’ve been trying to ask people a different question: sure, we’re more productive now but to me, the AI era is only serving to plunge us deeper than ever into producing more, more, more, faster, faster, faster. And for what? What’s it all for? I became a software engineer because I have a lot of fun writing code, thinking through and solving complicated problems, and experie…

> I’ve been trying to ask people a different question: sure, we’re more productive now but to me, the AI era is only serving to plunge us deeper than ever into producing more, more, more, faster, faster, faster. And for what? What’s it all for?

Many devs here have stated that the fun part for them is seeing the end product, not the act of creating it. Using AI is an act of need satisfaction.

Unfortunately, cloning a GitHub repository or downloading a Squarespace template doesn't hit the spot, because you can see exactly where the code came from, so your brain knows you were not the one responsible. AI's greatest feature is that it obfuscates provenance. You can now happily clone that repository or download that template without the feeling that you're cloning someone else's repository or downloading someone else's template.

Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#255
post #184

We were so spoiled. We got fat salaries to sit in air conditioned Herman Millers all day learning about computers. Now we discover a way to synthesis intelligence and the only thing we can think to do with it is ruin the most fun career most of us could have ever hoped for. Sure, we're all more productive now, but how much of that is because we leverage AI on top of the intelligence we gained from all of that manual…

I shit you not I have been told to "stop trying to understand it, just make sure it works" when mandated to use LLMs at work, like the absurdity of that statement isn't self-evident.

Needless to say I have been looking for a way out of this job (and likely career) ever since.

What's going to happen is people who give a shit are going to get filtered and self-select out of the job, and then the entire field is going to be dominated by dunning kruger AI maximalists. The "AI will replace engineers" is true, but for an entirely different reason and entirely different way than most people making that argument think.

Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#256
Welcome software engineers to the world of automated production. Your skills will drop, the usefulness of your skills will drop, the pay for your skills will drop, the quality of output you produce will drop, everything will be worse for everybody except for the person that legally claims ownership over the machine and what it produces.

100 years from now people will wonder at how anybody did anything manually writing all their code, but at the same time will have their mind boggled that a game like Roller Coaster Tycoon is possible without 1024 CPU cores running a few terabytes of memory in order to control every single person walking around the park.

Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#257
post #125
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI needs a great deal of handholding which is different than just offloading tasks. You spend a lot of cognitive energy playing a slot machine hoping the RNG works out this time. There’s definitely a skill to using AI but it just doesn’t generalize very well.

> playing a slot machine hoping I still believe the slot machine analogy holds to some extent, but I can honestly say my winning percentage is at least 90% for one shot generated code now. I think if you know it's limitations (inlcluding your own), I don't think about hoping anymore. I should note that when I say AI, I mean the collective models from all the major providers. The most important lesson is, you need to…

AI has definitely gotten good enough that its one shot success rate is better than most developers.

Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#258

The two senior engineers in my org (in a FAANG) who vibe-code the most have lost literally all of their skills. Their code has become terrible and their judgment even worse. A very similar topic was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48392004 and I make the exact same conclusion: All of this makes me selfishly excited for my own future. It's glaringly obvious that anyone who's a heavy user of LLMs i…

I recently did a manual exercise to force myself to keep my skills from decaying too much after about a year of using agents exclusively. My ability to go from a blank slate to software was indeed in the toilet, but my ability to reason over and edit code seems to be surviving fine. I suspect that your LLM-pilled coworkers' judgment issues are related to laziness that LLMs have enabled, rather than an inherent proper…

> My ability to go from a blank slate to software

> my ability to reason over and edit code

You can't be able to do one but not the other, they're the same thing.

> I suspect that your LLM-pilled coworkers' judgment issues are related to laziness that LLMs have enabled, rather than an inherent property of LLM use.

Does it matter? The end result is the same. Maybe the studies that the article mentions are simply showcasing the exact same effect that you're suggesting here, but it doesn't change the fact that there is indeed a negative outcome.

Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#259
post #184

We were so spoiled. We got fat salaries to sit in air conditioned Herman Millers all day learning about computers. Now we discover a way to synthesis intelligence and the only thing we can think to do with it is ruin the most fun career most of us could have ever hoped for. Sure, we're all more productive now, but how much of that is because we leverage AI on top of the intelligence we gained from all of that manual…

Please stop saying we - because many of us didn't ever desire or contribute (outside of having our code / data / IP stolen) to these models or the companies developing them. Many of us weren't willingly singing up to use AI - we were essentially forced to by our employers. Not everyone is more productive now because of AI - many people spend the extra time they save writing code, reviewing code produced by AI.

Yep. My job was code review heavy before AI. Now it's even worse because I can't even trust that the developer understood what they were "developing", so I have to be even more vigilant. I may have to institute a "prompt review" process for some.

Re: Is AI ruining our skills? Early results are in – and they're not good

#260
post #60

I haven't written a full function of code in over a year. That being said, I've been spending a lot more time thinking about architecture and system properties. So, yes, I do feel like I've lost some of that very low-level skill. But maybe I've also been able to spend more time on a higher level skill? Maybe the doctors got worse with the images but had more cognitive resources to think about the patient's context? N…

The question is what higher level skills there will be to focus on? I am not convinced that there are tasks, like project management or architecture, that the Ai is inherently worse at.

I think the main aspect is that a human can be held responsible. A human can be fired. Then we are pretending agents have agency when that is also what the human has. It seems like the meaning of economy of scale should almost flip to mean the economy of very small, highly specialized companies. It seems hard to see that the person in charge of cybersecurity is going to also be in charge of marketing. I think there is also this aspect that if you told me in high school I was someday going to be a project manager, I would have thought you were insane. You mean like Oppenheimer? No one is ever going to put me in charge of the Manhattan Project.

I think you can also see the vague outlines that someone is going to have to be in charge of token cost.

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