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I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

thatprivacyguy.com

251–260 of 308 posts

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if laws can override contracts (which presumably they can), then contracts can appear to establish permissions/restrictions that are illegal. At least one contract I've signed includes something about the rest being enforceable if any part of it isn't enforceable. Perhaps that helps to contain actual mistakes, but I assume employers use it to persuade employees that they're bound by illegal non-compete clauses, f…

No it means that if parts of a contract are found to be unlawful or unenforceable, the rest of the contract still holds. Edit: in other words, you're not legally bound to unlawful parts of a contract.

This is my understanding, too. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my earlier comment.

However, I also believe that unenforceable parts of a contract have no effect, except in the minds of the parties to that contract. My suspicion is that contracts are sometimes drafted with this in mind.

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#252
5 years?! That's a f*cking joke. Democracy and rule of law does not exist any longer. The politicians get richer, no one challenges them, they pass their offices down within their family, taxes get higher and higher, and services worse and worse.

On the other hand, it is fascinating to be able to watch the destruction of europe and western democracy while it is happening! I imagine that this painful slide is what must have happened during the end of the roman empire. Now we're seeing the end of the european/US empire.

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#253
FTA: The reply I received a few days later did me the favour of putting the violation on the record. Their position, in their own words, was that "in order to receive marketing / offers, it is a condition to be a member of the customer club."

I don’t see how that implies “if you’re a member of the club, you must receive marketing / offers”. It only says “only members receive marketing / offers”

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they obviously do use it?

I agree but please, provide citations instead of a question mark, to make what you believe is obvious actually in fact obvious.

I think the question mark is good enough for such an absurd claim. If the author cares they can find quotes with no effort

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#255

I'm glad it all worked out for this individual. I hope more people live their lives like this as the dystopia progresses. Unfortunately, especially in the US, exercising your rights, or even just reading every paper you're expected to put your name to, not only constantly pisses people off for some reason, but also puts you at a significant disadvantage compared to the people that never push back in the interest of n…

Can you cite the especially in the US part? Maybe use Bolivia, Kosovo, and Indonesia as some random global comparisons.

You're right, it would've been better to say "at least far as my experience in the US."

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am that person that reads every line of the contracts I sign, including ToS and PP. I appreciate that I can tell who it rubs the wrong way, because it tells me who will shake my hand without intending to honor their word. It changed the way I write these documents as well, the last ToS and PP I wrote can each be read in a single breath.

That simply isn't possible - you might like to think you read everything but research has shown that simply reading the terms and conditions of the top 100 websites amounts to a colossal amount of time (if you look at Prof. Lorie Cranor's research on this from around 2008, even back then the cost to the US in lost time was to the tune of trillions of dollars - now, they are much much worse than they were 18 years ago…

It would be nice if ToS were more like open source licenses in which people commonly standardize or template them (or parts of them). That way there's large chunks which are reduced, and a few diffs for what's unusual. I think the problem with this is the fact that sections are not independent.

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#257

I'm glad it all worked out for this individual. I hope more people live their lives like this as the dystopia progresses. Unfortunately, especially in the US, exercising your rights, or even just reading every paper you're expected to put your name to, not only constantly pisses people off for some reason, but also puts you at a significant disadvantage compared to the people that never push back in the interest of n…

Doesn't the right to free association solve this? Don't patronize companies that do this.

I'm a traveling healthcare worker, which means every 3 months is both a new contract for work and a new lease for a rental to stay at.

So if I'm not willing to complete several hours of training modules uncompensated and before the start date of my contract, I'm within my rights to refuse. But this violation of most states' codes is common practice, and when I inform a new workplace that I'm not going to do it, they tell me it's "required," and the part they're careful not to put in writing is that my contract will be canceled if I make a fuss (there is almost always a clause in these contracts saying they can cancel any time for any reason).

So just move onto the next job, right? But the market is very feast-or-famine. It's just not smart to assert my rights during one of the famine periods.

Similarly, if I'm not willing to sign a lease for a rental saying my landlord is entitled to seize and sell all of my property for being even a minute late on rent, I've now considerably limited my housing options, which is not good when I have a new job that starts in two weeks. If that landlord then goes and tells all their landlord friends that I'm "difficult," I could be completely fucked.

Sure, it's "solved." It sucks anyway.

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#258
post #228

I would like to see these regulations in place here. I have always felt very uncomfortable with companies like TurnItIn.com getting to train their models off of my work, without compensation, where my consent is assumed and there is no opt-out. I've brought this up before, and the general consensus was that my college enrollment is optional, and therefore my consent is freely given. I should have a right to attend a…

Hand in your paper when you’re on vacation or even better on a conference in Europe. GDPR will apply. Of course it will take so long that you won’t benefit from a decision for your studies. And one possible outcome is that your college won’t allow submitting from EU and won’t admit EU citizens (similar to US citizens having difficulties opening accounts in EU banks).

[deleted]

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#259

I'm glad it all worked out for this individual. I hope more people live their lives like this as the dystopia progresses. Unfortunately, especially in the US, exercising your rights, or even just reading every paper you're expected to put your name to, not only constantly pisses people off for some reason, but also puts you at a significant disadvantage compared to the people that never push back in the interest of n…

Went to a new doctor. As part of the check-in process, I was asked to "sign" a little digital pad, so, as I was told, they could properly use my insurance. I asked to see the hard copy of what I was signing and they couldn't find one. Then, for some reason, they were unable to print one. I gave up and scribbled my sig with my finger and then was seen by a doctor. It's maddening.

In general, in the US of A, that consent you sign waives your legislated-to-be-guaranteed HIPAA rights.

Specifically, you're typically giving the office's providers and their marketing "affiliates" and your insurance company and its marketing "affiliates" the right to forward around (through any length chains of agreements) your entire medical history associated with enough (research proven as de-anonymizing) details to retarget you personally. And you're typically doing this by accepting a company insurance (in the US) or the provider's reception counter while you're in need of care.

This effectively forced consent is arguably illegal, but as far as I know, untested, so it's standard across the medical system and across omnibus insurance (e.g. company-provided healthcare "plan").

Of course, every touch point is another place your personal history will get stolen and rolled into modern digitally scripted exploitation of your identity and or targeted forms of phish-mongering (a term I made up meaning marketing so personalized you believe it's necessary to sign up for and pay for).

If you have any relationship with the team at your company that procures employee insurance packages, see if you can persuade them to start with the firm's insurance consultant (high end) or broker (low end) and systematically remove every step in the "we can pass along all your info to our affiliates for our own pinky-swear good reasons like making more money off your private info" chain.

In our experience, this added 3+ months to the procurement process as every single provider balked until interacted with by counsel -- and then instantly capitulated.

Our goal was always to give our employees a top tier benefits package, and we consider it a top tier hard-to-match employee benefit to not have random firms and government agencies pawing through your doctors notes, prescription histories, lab results, and enough biographical data to fake your digital twin.

Sadly, most employees -- though none of them are sheeple -- shrug at that for reasons in this thread: no time to fight such pervasive exploitation, especially when it hits them while needing a service as it hit you, or just plain weary of trying. So much easier, and psychically healthier, to just avoid thinking about it. Everyone is resigned.

If a company you consider working for claims "we take your privacy seriously" ask if they got privacy waivers removed on your behalf from all vendor contracts including payroll (does your salary go to 'work number'?) and insurance providers (can your data leave your doctor's EMR?). Odds are, they do not, in fact, take your privacy as seriously as they could.

Re: I told them forced consent was unlawful. 5 years later it cost Elkjop €1.8M

#260
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how much did it make them over those 5 years?

You don't know how much it did cost them. Why would you care about how much they gained ? You can't compare something when you have neither value.

Well, isn't that my point exactly?

So the parent saying "The fine is only part of the story. They likely spent more money than the fine fighting it over 5 years as fines increase next time if you don’t stop" doesn't invalidate the question of the grandparent, that, "sure, the fine cost them X, but how much they made?"

Even if the total cost (fine+fighting it in court) was larger, the question remains: yes, and what's that compared to what they made?

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