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Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

theguardian.com

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Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#251

Post by JuniperMesos »

asdff wrote: post #182
throwaway27448 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of insane they trusted us to begin with. Why?

Why trust anyone? Really what stops a Trump from getting elected anywhere else? The citizens seem smarter or less bigoted? Are you sure that will always be the case given the agitprop in every form of media and internet communication in every language on earth?

There have been many elections in many political entities where a politician got elected because one group of citizens really liked that politician; and another group of citizens thought that politician was extremely, historically bad. This is inherent to mass democracy itself in any polity where there are real and deep-seated differences between different groups of the electorate. "A Trump" - in the sense of a politician whose opponents describe in apocalyptic terms and consider that politician's supporters to be stupid and bigoted - gets elected all the time in all sorts of places.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#252

Post by adjejmxbdjdn »

bluegatty wrote: post #249

This is actually more likely a non-political procurement decision that looks like a political one. This is the 'right size' for Canada and other nations - the US doesn't offer a true comparable, and, looks like the US balked at buying the 'kind of comparable' Boeing E7 putting it in jeopardy. With European military renaissance and the SAAB gear proving itself in Ukraine ... well, you see the shift. This is the shift…

In the past countries would buy American equipment even if it wasn’t the best fit because that would make you essentially an American ally. Being part of the U.S. ecosystem was valuable.

Unfortunately, over the last 1.5 years, the political value proposition has turned by 180 degrees. - Being a U.S. ally no longer guarantees that you will be protected by the U.S. as Ukraine is seeing. But the U.S. has been tearing agreements left and right and the President has openly said he may not respond to a valid Article 5 invocation.

- Being a U.S. ally seems to bring even more threats from the U.S. as Canada and Europe are seeing

- Being a U.S. ally is no guarantee of protection even if you literally host American bases like the gulf countries are seeing. In fact, it’s only made them a target and the U.S. prioritized protecting Israel entirely over protecting any of the Gulf states.

The value proposition for buying U.S. weapons has become really bad at this point.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#253

Post by cwillu »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #69
lysace wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Canada is very unlikely to be invaded Except from the south.

Or, as it turns out, from within. (Looking at you, Danielle Smith). But yes you're right. The only times we've been invaded were from that direction.

> Or, as it turns out, from within. (Looking at you, Danielle Smith).

Pretty sure that's a prong of the southern strategy.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#254

Post by pfannkuchen »

khriss wrote: post #30

I can understand why this change happened. Even if American equipment is superior, there is a lot of value to not depending on a supposed 'ally' which * Arbitrarily slapped high tariffs on all goods from Canada while exempting Russia and Belarus. * Threatened to take over the country by force. * Officially suspended the Permanent Joint Board on Defense between US and Canada because of criticism of US foreign policy b…

> while exempting Russia and Belarus

I thought they were sanctioned to hell and back. Do tariffs even apply as a concept?

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#255

Post by paddim8 »

asdff wrote: post #178
khriss wrote: post #30

I can understand why this change happened. Even if American equipment is superior, there is a lot of value to not depending on a supposed 'ally' which * Arbitrarily slapped high tariffs on all goods from Canada while exempting Russia and Belarus. * Threatened to take over the country by force. * Officially suspended the Permanent Joint Board on Defense between US and Canada because of criticism of US foreign policy b…

What is stopping the Swedes from electing a jackass? They seem smart for now? It happens in Europe too. All these weaknesses are liable for any country in a democratic model where executive is controlled via popular vote. Population is trivial to manipulate. This is the new world. Running to Sweden doesn't change the underlying issue of the ease of manipulating an electorate using technological affordances to capture…

It can happen in Sweden too but it is less likely to. We don't have a president, we have a prime minister with limited power. We have a stronger democracy run by coalitions instead of a single party. One jackass is not enough in Sweden.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#256

Post by cmrdporcupine »

jleyank wrote: post #244
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with any time you deploy an average... (And I'd expect better on this forum of all places) Show me the distribution. Show me the median not just the mean. Show me the standard deviation. Otherwise ... abused. Yes, we all know oil is an extremely profitable (and environmentally destructive) commodity. That doesn't make the typical Albertans somehow responsible for holding up all of confederation. Just means oil is…

Do the oil profits even stay in Canada? Taxes maybe, but it’s not like the province owns the wells.

They get to "own" them when it's time to "clean them up" after they're abandoned by bankrupt shell corporations, that's for sure.

https://www.pgic-iogc.gc.ca/eng/1588343274882/1588355750048

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/abaondoned-oil-well-o...

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/what-did-alberta-do-with...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-more-than-1...

But Trudeau had it out for Alberta. Better off separating. Yep.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#257

Post by ChoGGi »

jleyank wrote: post #244
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with any time you deploy an average... (And I'd expect better on this forum of all places) Show me the distribution. Show me the median not just the mean. Show me the standard deviation. Otherwise ... abused. Yes, we all know oil is an extremely profitable (and environmentally destructive) commodity. That doesn't make the typical Albertans somehow responsible for holding up all of confederation. Just means oil is…

Do the oil profits even stay in Canada? Taxes maybe, but it’s not like the province owns the wells.

I think 70-80% of investors are down South, so not much stays here no. And jack shit goes into the heritage fund, just for aimco to throw away (sorry invest).

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#258

Post by lysace »

bluegatty wrote: post #249

This is actually more likely a non-political procurement decision that looks like a political one. This is the 'right size' for Canada and other nations - the US doesn't offer a true comparable, and, looks like the US balked at buying the 'kind of comparable' Boeing E7 putting it in jeopardy. With European military renaissance and the SAAB gear proving itself in Ukraine ... well, you see the shift. This is the shift…

> With European military renaissance and the SAAB gear proving itself in Ukraine

Btw, we just got this news report here in Sweden:

Sweden is giving Gripen jets to Ukraine

https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/vr3znL/uppgift-sverige-...

Aftonbladet is Sweden's largest daily newspaper. They have a fairly strong track record on government and defense scoops.

The supposed announcement is tomorrow morning, local/CEST.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#259

Post by Planktonne »

khriss wrote: post #198
throwaway27448 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of insane they trusted us to begin with. Why?

Because Trump is a new, and (hopefully!) a one time phenomenon. He is unique in that he seems to have absolute control over the Republican base which makes all internal party checks fail. The rest is provided by a hyper polarized media landscape and a conservative supreme court majority that seems to be open to radical upheavals. The combination of all three has rendered the constitutional safe guards ineffective. In…

> Because Trump is a new, and (hopefully!) a one time phenomenon.

Trump is already, on his own, a two-time phenomenon. Leaving aside broader cultural issues and patterns, "one-time only" has been clearly incorrect for a while.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#260

Post by bluegatty »

lysace wrote: post #258
bluegatty wrote: post #249

This is actually more likely a non-political procurement decision that looks like a political one. This is the 'right size' for Canada and other nations - the US doesn't offer a true comparable, and, looks like the US balked at buying the 'kind of comparable' Boeing E7 putting it in jeopardy. With European military renaissance and the SAAB gear proving itself in Ukraine ... well, you see the shift. This is the shift…

> With European military renaissance and the SAAB gear proving itself in Ukraine Btw, we just got this news report here in Sweden: Sweden is giving Gripen jets to Ukraine https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/vr3znL/uppgift-sverige-... Aftonbladet is Sweden's largest daily newspaper. They have a fairly strong track record on government and defense scoops. The supposed announcement is tomorrow morning, local/CEST.

They are not likely 'giving' , Sweden just got $90B in locked up Russian money and those 'freebies' are going to come along with a major purchase order.
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