Live data from Hacker News

Leave Me Behind

androidessence.com

251–260 of 344 posts

Re: Leave Me Behind

#251
post #167

There are a number of comments here where people open up about their contrasting experiences of not being a part of a programming community. Those are well addressed, I think, but there is another point to consider. We need to remember the people, that we may never talk to, that are downstream of all of this software. Not necessarily “the users” as there are many pieces of software meant for other devs, but I think t…

Steve Jobs motivated Larry Kenyon, the engineer working on bootup, by saying he is effectively saving lives.

I wonder if we reverse that. When engineers write shitty, slow, buggy code or when they're forced to do that by the company, they are effectively killing people.

After all, if I spend an hour dealing with a preventable bug, that's an hour of my live I am never getting back. Multiple that by the userbase and you get entire lifetimes.

[0]: https://www.folklore.org/Saving_Lives.html

Re: Leave Me Behind

#252
post #167

There are a number of comments here where people open up about their contrasting experiences of not being a part of a programming community. Those are well addressed, I think, but there is another point to consider. We need to remember the people, that we may never talk to, that are downstream of all of this software. Not necessarily “the users” as there are many pieces of software meant for other devs, but I think t…

I think history will prove that this is a less nuanced view than is required to accurately describe the situation. Abandoning human agency through the use of generative AI harms us all. Using AI as a force multiplier to implement human agency helps us all. It's possible to recognize that asking AI to do everything results in a poor product and brain rot for the humans. It's not at all clear that this is the case for…

I've always felt we somewhat failed as engineers (I included, of course) when I was doing boilerplate by hand. We should have taken the time to get those autogenerated. But... it takes time and the generator is always more complex than the produced code, sometimes even by a few factors, so it also takes an expert to maintain.

As for tests, I've seen LLMs produce good ones as well as useless ones. I guess it's all about instructions... sorry, prompts... no, sorry, prompt engineering to get it right and done properly.

That said, I am also very concerned with brain rot. Engineers nowadays can commit code they don't understand without a blink of the eye. Slowly, the knowledge may get sparse if we are not careful about it.

Re: Leave Me Behind

#253
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why would you buy it off of Anthropic?

Interesting that you think building is just coding. What do you think architects do? Or interior designers? Or civil engineers?

Interesting that you think coding just typing. Code is just a language where the problem is specified in fine detail; the biggest value proposition of an LLM is being able to hand-wave and let some other tool take care of guessing at detail, where you can't be bothered to specify it in full. And, part of the process of specifying in full forces you to rethink design assumptions.

Architecture certainly isn't building, and neither is interior design. Civil engineers calculate and specify the loads in excruciating detail, because if they didn't, people would die.

Re: Leave Me Behind

#255
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why would you buy it off of Anthropic?

In any activity you can take shortcuts that makes it easier. It's up to you how many (if any) you want. Take woodworking for example. When I build a kitchen cabinet, I can get lumber that's already smooth and treated, I can buy drawer tracks, I can use power tools instead of a handsaw and a screwdriver, I can use a pocket hole jig to make joints easier. I still have to do more planning and assembling than with the Ik…

[deleted]

Re: Leave Me Behind

#256

It seems to me that the article is creating a false dichotomy where either you don't use AI at all, or you delegate every aspect of the work to AI. This simply isn't how it works in practice. You get to choose how much of the work you delegate to AI. There's still an enormous amount of space for human expertise, community, and enthusiasm for technology. The public debate around AI makes me think of the cognitive dist…

Exactly. To be fair, there would be people in both camps (all-in and no-go) and they would be the vocal ones.

Those are the minority. The majority will find the middle ground.

Re: Leave Me Behind

#257

My experience programming is so much different than theirs makes me wonder what I missed out on. I have always programmed on my own, and I can't even think about a single time I have talked to a person in depth about programming (both online and in person). It sounds fun and exciting, but unfortunately I have simply never had the opportunities in life to do so. For me, AI is the first time I have ever been able to ge…

You know it's random nonsense, and yet you still take it on faith that it "gives you answers". That's what makes me despair about all the AI nonsense: it's the death of intellect. Not the death of deep thinking, but of common sense. I can't wait for the day until all these people collectively snap out of it, and go "what the hell were we thinking with these chatbots".

When I say it gives me an answer I mean an answer purely in the sense of it is a response to a question, whether or not the answer is correct is for me to decide and I put no faith in whether or not the answer will be correct. I treat the output like an opinion that can sometimes give me an idea for how I can better tackle the problem I am trying to solve.

Re: Leave Me Behind

#258
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Handing over software quality to the stochastic code extruder is causing a sharp drop in the quality of software put out into the world. Well, first of all you and the author point to the same derisive comment of these models being, in your words "stochastic code extruder" or the one I have heard a lot "next-token predictors", and the connotation I read from these being that this makes them inherently dumb or unint…

It's like people complaining about "poor quality plastic trinkets" that replaced well-made household items. Of course high-quality things can be (and are) made of plastic. The problem is that you can still make a very cheap passable thing out of plastic, that would be uneconomical to make out of metal or wood. Same with code: by using AI, one can produce passable software trinkets very cheaply, that would be uneconim…

> It's like people complaining about "poor quality plastic trinkets" that replaced well-made household items.

Actually, people had to be made to see it as cheap so they would throw away and re-buy more.

https://desis.osu.edu/seniorthesis/index.php/2024/09/15/crea...

> “It was a really difficult sell to the American public in the post-war period, to inculcate people into a throwaway living,” she says. “That is not what people were used to.”

> A solution companies came up with was emphasizing that plastic was a low-cost, abundant material.

> A 1960 marketing study for Scott Cup said the containers were “almost indestructible,” but that the manufacturer could still convince people to discard them after a few uses. To counter any “pangs of conscience” consumers might feel about throwing them away, the researchers suggested a “direct attack”: Tell people the cups are cheap, they said, and that “there are more where these came from.”

> A few years later, Scott ran an advertisement saying its plastic cups were available at “‘toss-away prices.”

It wasn't plastic itself, and likewise it's not "AI" itself.

We do have an abysmal track record as industrialized nations however, and more recently, in many parts of the software industry.

But we can change it. With so many things, tech people spent so much time and energy debating... like cookies or HTTPS or whatever... we often heard/said that while we care so much about doing the right thing, we can't achieve anything at work because consumers don't care. Well, this time, pretty much all of the world cares a lot. I mean, the Vatican just blogged about it!

Maybe we just "have to live with it", but in that case, there is also no utility in pointing that out, since we literally have to live with it. And of course, it's really about the shape of the "it", and how it's used, not that there is one that will never go away. That is also true about most things: stuff we don't currently use is in the museum or text books. Nothing goes away away, but we no longer drink out of lead cups, even though we still use lead. We don't have x-ray machines in shoe shops, even though we still use x-rays.

Re: Leave Me Behind

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to the same derisive comment of these models being, in your words "stochastic code extruder" So many excited and insulted LLM adopters on this thread. There is nothing derisive in that comment, it is simply the purest possible definition of how they work. Stochastics is a branch of maths you know. > can solve Erdos problems is sort of the proof in the pudding For the non-engineer, non-mathematician it may sound aut…

> So many excited and insulted LLM adopters on this thread. neither excited nor insulted. > There is nothing derisive in that comment, it is simply the purest possible definition of how they work. Stochastics is a branch of maths you know. Not sure what you mean by stochastics but this is more statistics. They are trained with a next token loss, that doesn't belie "how they work". > For the non-engineer, non-mathemat…

> an engineer and a mathematician

An engineer with an engineering degree, which as it may still be known to some, requires a fairly stringent mathematical underpinning. So yes, I know a thing or two - read up on Erdos and his problems, I am not here to enlighten every vibecoding PM that shows up.

> And this means agentic code is inherently inferior to human code? Howso?

Again, I am not here to explain the world to some clueless PM. You have your LLMs for that :) But for the sake of bringing you closer, the "agentic" code is often very inferior, implementing happy paths or just bluntly exposing secrets in clear texts, etc. Probably a consequence of it being trained on, as you put it "p50 engineering code".

> Maybe you work in a really talented engineering team,

Running my own company and been paying the LLM-Shit-Generators for my whole team for a long time, in the hope they would bring the advertised benefits. Guess what - for serious use-cases, they bring shit and more shit.

> Thank you for the advice to read a book on programming as if that somehow would have any bearing on this at all?

Oh yeah obviously not, I mean, its not like understanding software development would help you understand how LLMs are not similar to a "p50 engineer" at all:). I'd take the latter over the former every time.

> Why is this statement obviously absurd

Well for one, LLMs are not humans, but it should be obvious to even to most cretinous of the e/acc crowd. It's not like they can think in abstract terms or come up with completely new concepts. But then again, don't mind me - if you can live with below average AI slop - go for it.

Re: Leave Me Behind

#260
post #161
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about removing meaning. A normal thoughtful person can surely come up with things to do and occopy their lives with. In fact for most of people work just gets in the way of that. What's it about is once you remove the paycheck that all proletariats need when things get "interesting".

I hear this all the time but where is the explosion in people learning art, music, increased time with friends and family, etc… instead it’s all the opposite. We’re using all our extra free time to doomscroll.

What extra free time? Have we gotten more of that in the last years? From what I can see, everyone is still working full time jobs, needing to make more money than ever in recent history to survive.
Post reply on HN